World's largest amateur rocket?

I have a vague recolection of having aksed this previously... but I'm gonna ask again just to see if anything's changed in the last few years...


As far as folks here know.... does the world record for the largest (tallest) amateur rocket still stand with Chuck Sacket's 'Project 463' flown back in the mid 90's?

Unfortunately... the Fat Cat site seems to be down so the detailed description of the project that Chuck put up there seems to be no longer accessible... but from my recolection the rocket was around 43 - 44ft tall and was 3ft diameter for the 1st stage.

AFAIK my company still holds second place with the 42ft tall, 4ft diameter 'Beautiful Blue'.... but in terms of length... I wanted to confirm if anything else has been flown that could have broken that record?

(and no, Space Ship One hasn't broken the record, it was smaller than 40ft long!)


If anyone knows of any other projects that were 40ft tall+... do let me know!!


Many thanks



Ben

Stumpy, flown at LDRS 22, was just a smidge under 52 feet tall.

I'd have to go find all the specifics to get the actual height.

-Kevin

Originally posted by troj
Stumpy, flown at LDRS 22, was just a smidge under 52 feet tall.

I'd have to go find all the specifics to get the actual height.

-Kevin

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Didn't it fold into a couple dozen pieces?

I seem to recall some 'filler' footage on one of Brent's LDRS DVD which included a very long skinny rocket taking off and kinda folding in half from a long distance away.... is that the flight you mean?

I've just done a Google search on 'Stumpy' and found some pics on Bruce Lee's personal site...

Yep, listed there as being 52ft tall.

Jeez that was one skinny rocket!! I assume it was all carbon or something to keep it from folding?

Does anyone know what sort of launcher was used to support it? I assume (by comparison) it was a relatively short rail that was used?


Cheers!


Ben

Woah.... just found the THOR newsletter that describes it.... MAN It was Phenolic?!!!!

That is an awesome feat for that to stay together during the erection process let alone in flight!


Very cool indeed... and on just three 'J' motors?! awesome!



Ben

Ben

Just a point.

Space Ship One from Scaled Composites was not an amateur effort. Scaled Composites is a for profit, private professional corporation.

Bob

Originally posted by bobkrech
Ben

Just a point.

Space Ship One from Scaled Composites was not an amateur effort. Scaled Composites is a for profit, private professional corporation.

Bob

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True, by counting SS1 you could arguably count Sealaunch... however SS1 was developed privately (not for/funded by any government contract) and as such was non governmental..

Belive me I've been wrestling with this argument a long while... if it's commercially sponsored, er-go not funded by 'amateurs' is it amateur? If my company builds an HPR rocket (funds the materials) does it count as amateur even if my time in building it isn't paid for?


By 'amateur'... I guess I probably should have said 'non-governmental'.

Sealaunch uses a booster developed by/for the Russian government as an ICBM, er-go, by no means does it count under amateur or non-governmental... however SS1 was not built for any government, or for any government funded contract... it was 100% commercial... so by definition it probably isn't amateur, but is non-governmental.

I was really just pre-empting someone saying 'Space ship one was amateur' by pointing out that whether it was or wasn't.... it was too small


The whole X-prize thing has blurred the line somewhat I think


Ben

Originally posted by benjarvis
True, by counting SS1 you could arguably count Sealaunch... however SS1 was developed privately (not for/funded by any government contract) and as such was non governmental..

Belive me I've been wrestling with this argument a long while... if it's commercially sponsored, er-go not funded by 'amateurs' is it amateur? If my company builds an HPR rocket (funds the materials) does it count as amateur even if my time in building it isn't paid for?


By 'amateur'... I guess I probably should have said 'non-governmental'.

Sealaunch uses a booster developed by/for the Russian government as an ICBM, er-go, by no means does it count under amateur or non-governmental... however SS1 was not built for any government, or for any government funded contract... it was 100% commercial... so by definition it probably isn't amateur, but is non-governmental.

I was really just pre-empting someone saying 'Space ship one was amateur' by pointing out that whether it was or wasn't.... it was too small


The whole X-prize thing has blurred the line somewhat I think


Ben

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Ben

I think the differences between amateur and professional efforts are pretty clear, as are the results.

Amateurs do not make their living from their efforts, professionals do. If the principals and the employees of a company are deriving their incomes from the company, and the company is making money, then they are professionals. If folks are not being paid, or volunteering their time, and/or the company is a legal non-profit, then they are amateurs.

It becomes a bit cloudy when a professional like myself volunteers his time to an amateur effort.

Bob

Regarding the largest/tallest rockets the high power model rocket community has built and flown you have:

1)Tallest - THOR's (led up by our very own Kevin Trojanowski!) Stumpy standing at about 52 feet.

https://www.nerocketry.org/newsletters/2003/Oct2003.pdf

2)Heaviest - Project Liberty (Bob Utley's group?) which weighed over 1,400 lbs. and flew back in 2004. Earl Cagle shot enough material to make a video for it if he ever gets a chance to make it.

3)Just straight out BIG - Chuck Sacket's Project 463 standing over 40' tall and weighing over 1,200 lbs.

Originally posted by benjarvis
I seem to recall some 'filler' footage on one of Brent's LDRS DVD which included a very long skinny rocket taking off and kinda folding in half from a long distance away.... is that the flight you mean?

I've just done a Google search on 'Stumpy' and found some pics on Bruce Lee's personal site...

Yep, listed there as being 52ft tall.

Jeez that was one skinny rocket!! I assume it was all carbon or something to keep it from folding?

Does anyone know what sort of launcher was used to support it? I assume (by comparison) it was a relatively short rail that was used?


Cheers!


Ben

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The launch rail assembly I believe was less then half the length of the rocket. It was very tricky raising the rocket up. A rope was tied to the upper section of the rocket to help steady it while it was raised up and since it wouldn't come loose, it remained tied to the rocket for its flight.

As for the tubing, yep, good old phenolic tubing! You can see in our newsletter a picture I took of one of the stiffening structures that went into the upper sections. The weak points were the couplers themselves and that where the buckling took place. I may be incorrect, but I believe only one section rally "broke" and came down without a parachute. (Kevin could fill us in on the details).

When I get a chance this evening, I'll post some additional pictures I took of the project.

Originally posted by Apollo Leader
Regarding the largest/tallest rockets the high power model rocket community has built and flown you have:

1)Tallest - THOR's (led up by our very own Kevin Trojanowski!) Stumpy standing at about 52 feet.

https://www.nerocketry.org/newsletters/2003/Oct2003.pdf

2)Heaviest - Project Liberty (Bob Utley's group?) which weighed over 1,400 lbs. and flew back in 2004. Earl Cagle shot enough material to make a video for it if he ever gets a chance to make it.

3)Just straight out BIG - Chuck Sacket's Project 463 standing over 40' tall and weighing over 1,200 lbs.

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Cool....

A few European projects I know of that probably pip some of those... but that gives me a far better picture!

I think as far as I can see... the stats in terms of weight and length go something along the lines of:


Length:

1st: Stumpy - 52ft
2nd: Project 463 - 43ft
3rd: Beautiful Blue - 42ft
4th: Down Right Ignorant - 36ft??
5th: TopGear Shuttle - 35ft (approx by my calcs)

GLOW:

1st: TopGear shuttle - 3000lb+ (may have been over 4000, it was certainly allegedly over 1.5 metric tons at launch)
2nd: Liberty Project - 1360lb
3rd: Project 463 - 1200lb (IIRC?)
4th: Beautiful Blue - 900lb
5th: Down Right Ignorant - 850lb

Woohoo! we're in 3rd and 4th place respectively!

Thanks all for your help with this... The Liberty project was awesome... gotta love that huge purple flame!


Cheers all



Ben

Originally posted by Apollo Leader
The launch rail assembly I believe was less then half the length of the rocket. It was very tricky raising the rocket up. A rope was tied to the upper section of the rocket to help steady it while it was raised up and since it wouldn't come loose, it remained tied to the rocket for its flight.

As for the tubing, yep, good old phenolic tubing! You can see in our newsletter a picture I took of one of the stiffening structures that went into the upper sections. The weak points were the couplers themselves and that where the buckling took place. I may be incorrect, but I believe only one section rally "broke" and came down without a parachute. (Kevin could fill us in on the details).

When I get a chance this evening, I'll post some additional pictures I took of the project.

Click to expand...

That'd be great to see Richard... it's certainly nice to see folks trying for the 'elegant' approach to things like this now and then rather than the 'brute force and ignorance' approach

That's a hell of a job keeping a phenolic rocket that long together.


Ben

they show the sequence were stumpy "folded" on Wild and weird rockets that is amazing 3 Js

Bruce Lees' "Stimpy"...as seen on The Rocket Challenge on Discovery network.

Didn't the Project 463 bite the dust ....the recovery I saw on video years ago was late and it impacted from a low altitude.

That would be "stumpy," which the discovery channel misspelled as "stempy." Kind of kills the humor...

Originally posted by MaxQ
Bruce Lees' "Stimpy"...as seen on The Rocket Challenge on Discovery network.

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Stumpy was a group project....

-Kevin

Originally posted by jrogers
Didn't it fold into a couple dozen pieces?

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It separated in three pieces for recovery; in addition, one piece broke off at deployment.

The fin can then broke off on landing for reasons we won't go into....

-Kevin

Originally posted by benjarvis
Woah.... just found the THOR newsletter that describes it.... MAN It was Phenolic?!!!!

That is an awesome feat for that to stay together during the erection process let alone in flight!

Click to expand...

Yep, phenolic. It had a fairly light-weight structure inside the tubes to help them stay rigid without adding a lot of weight or expense. Hindsight says that structure should've extended through the couplers, as well, as those were the problem area.

Getting it vertical was like trying to raise a giant spaghetti noodle. Greg Rothman figured out to use a portable antenna tower and ropes to provide support.

-Kevin

Originally posted by MaxQ
Bruce Lees' "Stimpy"...as seen on The Rocket Challenge on Discovery network.

Didn't the Project 463 bite the dust ....the recovery I saw on video years ago was late and it impacted from a low altitude.

Click to expand...

Yep, seems the consensus is that Stumpy' was the longest at 52ft...


And yeah, 463 was two stage, a P and two N's in the 1st stage and a single 'N' in the sustainer.

The 1st stage operated ok... it arced quite a bit... but none of the onboard electronics worked iirc... the second stage never lit, and none of the recovery systems deployed... it drag seperated as it came back in... and the booster and sustainer both impacted seperately.... a hell of a mess.

It didn't go 'that high' in comparison to it's size... but it reached a few thousand feet as I recall.

A couple of thousand feet looks awful low when you're watching a 40ft+ rocket from a mile away


Ben

...on that Discovery show:

A thru O motors used an "Ammonium Nitrate" fuel

the Hybrids used a "liquid oxygen" and rubber.

They used on board video of Bruce's "Bomp Pop" for the "Aurora" project flight.


....among other things.
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So the largest/longest rocket flights didn't necessarily have to pass the recovery test you would use for a cert flight...?

Originally posted by benjarvis
AFAIK my company still holds second place with the 42ft tall, 4ft diameter 'Beautiful Blue'.... but in terms of length... I wanted to confirm if anything else has been flown that could have broken that record?

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Beautiful Blue was 38ft tall and 42inches diameter. Not only do I remember you telling me so on a number of occasions, I have the details written down in my notebook from the last time you told me days before the launch. I have checked this with other members of the team, and they confirm this too.

(and no, Space Ship One hasn't broken the record, it was smaller than 40ft long!)

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Space Ship One was a commercial rocket plane built by Scaled Composites. It was not an amateur vehicle in any sense of the description, and I am sure many in the professional rocketry community would be irritated to see it described as such.

If anyone knows of any other projects that were 40ft tall+... do let me know!!

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It may not have been over 40 feet in the length dimension, but in terms of volumetric displacement, the Top Gear Shuttle could fit several other rockets inside it. In terms of general size, it was massive. In terms of GLOW, it was off the scale.

I'll leave Damian Hall and Colin Rowe to give the details of their baby, but having seen several very large projects, the Space Shuttle was undoubtedly the most awe inspiring, and a testament to what they can produce.


Richard

NOW I remember why I didn't post on TRF for eighteen months


Just checked, and yep, I was going off the original plan drawings for BB with one more of the main body segments in there... it's amazing how you can block so much out when it goes so bad

According to the pics it was 37.5ft tall... so the ranking table is actually still exactly the same, makes no real difference.


And by listing those rankings I meant no disservice to any of the projects... the list is just a list of facts for historical note.

No one needs to defend anyones projects whether we've decided they're our best friend this week or not.




Ben

Originally posted by benjarvis
NOW I remember why I didn't post on TRF for eighteen months

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Really ? I thought it was more to do with all the money you still owe people after Beautiful Blue. Money which you claimed not to have, but which your recent proclamations of all these projects you suddenly seem able to afford, have people scratching their heads.

According to the pics it was 37.5ft tall... so the ranking table is actually still exactly the same, makes no real difference.

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It does in terms of accuracy

No one needs to defend anyones projects whether we've decided they're our best friend this week or not.

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It's not a question of defence, it's a case of accurate precis over innaccurate PR.

Richard

Don't know what this is all about!!!!!!
The cad drawings I did for you (ben), using your drawings made the rocket out to be 10.5m tall, the extra height was from the rail
As for the size (size being what!!!!!) you could put a balloon on a very long string, say 600 feet, and attach that to your rocket, does that make it 600 foot tall? me thinks not.
View the size as total volume. Doing that you get a totaly different picture of it.
BB then comes in at 8.45 cubic meters
Starchaser comes in at 10.12 cubic meters
Top Gear shuttle comes in at 27.56 cubic meters
Also the oxidiser tank was 1.5m dia (largest lasercut rings me thinks) and the boosters at 660mm dia.
Not that it matters that much to me, I just like to quote the facts, not just rough guesses.
I have all the parts in cad 3d over 140 laser cut parts so can just do a quick click to get these figures, no guess work.

Discuss..........................

Originally posted by Chris B.

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ROTFLMAO



All the best,

Richard

Originally posted by Rowes Retainers
Don't know what this is all about!!!!!!
The cad drawings I did for you (ben), using your drawings made the rocket out to be 10.5m tall, the extra height was from the rail
As for the size (size being what!!!!!) you could put a balloon on a very long string, say 600 feet, and attach that to your rocket, does that make it 600 foot tall? me thinks not.
View the size as total volume. Doing that you get a totaly different picture of it.
BB then comes in at 8.45 cubic meters
Starchaser comes in at 10.12 cubic meters
Top Gear shuttle comes in at 27.56 cubic meters
Also the oxidiser tank was 1.5m dia (largest lasercut rings me thinks) and the boosters at 660mm dia.
Not that it matters that much to me, I just like to quote the facts, not just rough guesses.
I have all the parts in cad 3d over 140 laser cut parts so can just do a quick click to get these figures, no guess work.

Discuss..........................

Click to expand...

Very interesting, figures!

And given that you have the actual CAD drawings from when you needed them to design the launch tower from Beautiful Blue, those are hard figures I suspect none would quibble over Very useful in terms of having accurate figures for listings too. Thanks Colin.

The total volume is an interesting one, and not a figure I'd really looked into properly before other than as an analogous figure, but given your figures above, it kind of puts things in perspective in terms of overall size of various vehicles.

As you say, the lasercut rings were very large for your Shuttle project, but more than that, it was the sheer technical complexity of getting something of that size with such assymmetry to launch, and with such a sophisticated avionics system, and such smoothly operating mechanical systems that was really something too.

My hats off to you, Damian and the team!

All the best,

Richard

A few weeks ago I meant to post some additional pictures of Stumpy that I have. I will try to do so tonight or sometime this week.

My popcorn's getting stale! Come on, chaps!

Originally posted by spacecadet
My popcorn's getting stale! Come on, chaps!

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What, you LIKE watching men compare the size of their rockets?

Mine's longer!
Yeah, well mine's wider!
Who cares, mine's faster!
Mine goes higher!
Mine is more powerful!
Yeah, well at least mine didn't break...

Sheesh...