Custom Machined Aluminum Fins

[Eric1]

Hello Forum.

My name is Bryce for those who don't know me. I am a college student currently attending a local Junior College with goals of attending a 4year college to major in Aerospace Engineering in two years.

For those who read the Project 60k thread you have seen the fins we used. We used a fin in the standard trapezoidal shape. They were 15" long and cut from a single piece of 3/4" thick 6061 Aluminum.



View attachment 98856



These fins featured a unique pure double wedge with an added radial taper. What that means is that these fins are less than half the weight of standard beveled fins while also increasing aerodynamics and nearly eliminating the fin flutter harmonics.



View attachment 98855



Our fins as mentioned above were 15" long and weighed less than 7 ounces each.

Another great feature of these fins was the rounded root edges. What this means is that the curvature of the body tube is machined into the root edge so that there is no need in guessing about whether your fins are straight and perpendicular once placed on the tube you can feel how solid they are and how they aren't moving.



View attachment 98853



There has been such positive interest of the fins in this project that I have been asked to consider machining more and selling them.

These fins are offered one of two styles. With or without the fillets machined.

With the fillets means that the fillets is machined into the fin, it requires the extra thickness in the stock. This would be for those who want to surface mount the fins (like how 60k did it) we were able to prove that this technique works up to a speed of Mach 3 (and possibly substantially higher).

The other way is without fillets. You want a 1/4" max root thickness then all you need is 1/4" stock. You tell me what root width you want and I will leave that bare stock. This would be for anyone who is going to want to mount their fins in some sort of mechanical bond. Such as the 90deg angle irons.

These fins would be the perfect for any minimum diameter and speed rocket that you don't want to have to worry about whether your fins will flutter and airfoil is precise and accurate.

When cut the edges are not razor sharp. They are left flat with .03" thickness. This allows you to choose to round them or sharpen them yourself.

These fins are truly a piece of machining work. They also take time to machine.

The cost for these fins is calculated relatively simply.

As an example: the Project 60k fins cost $100 in materials and took 5hours of design/setup/cutting. I would charge $200 for the identical set of fins.

I know you will not find another machine shop to make them for that cost. There is a machine shop in town I checked out which would charge over $650. That's with the discount of being a student.

If you are interested in getting more info about the fins please post below.

If you have specific questions on pricing please PM me I will do my best to answer the PMs within the hour.

It will likely take about two weeks per set once I receive the material based on the time I have available to work.

Thank you all for looking.

Bryce Chanes
[email protected]


Note: I have been asked about making G10 or Carbon stock fins. Unfortunately since I do not own the machine, I do not make the rules. Sorry no G10 or Fiberglass.

Bryce,

I really love the fins you have done a great job for that I applaud you.
You mentioned that no other machine shop would make these for what you are charging. Did you ever wonder why?
Guy like me have to Pay for the machines, the power, the tools and inserts plus cutting fluids ($1200. a drum).
On top of that there are taxes at every level.

Young Man, I really think highly of you and I hope you understand what I saying.
What you are doing is here wrong. Your are running a business from your school. That could cost them their Non Profit status, did you consider this?
In the real world we machinists have to make a profit to cover costs. I don't appreciate having to compete with you the way you have went at this.
Please put yourself in my shoes and try to see this through my eyes.

Our Country has forgotten what Machiavelli taught us in The Prince The end does Not justify the means.

In closing,

I really do like you and I'm sure you will be a success in this world.
I wish all the best for you and I hopeto fly with you someday.
May God Bless and keep you,

 

[troj]

Interesting comments, Eric, and something I've wondered about, as well. I don't know the policies of where Bryce is doing his work, but I do know that a lot of similar shops allow use of tools for personal projects, and for gifts, but not for anything that's for sale.

-Kevin

 

[bandman444]

Bryce,

I really love the fins you have done a great job for that I applaud you.
You mentioned that no other machine shop would make these for what you are charging. Did you ever wonder why?
Guy like me have to Pay for the machines, the power, the tools and inserts plus cutting fluids ($1200. a drum).
On top of that there are taxes at every level.

Young Man, I really think highly of you and I hope you understand what I saying.
What you are doing is here wrong. Your are running a business from your school. That could cost them their Non Profit status, did you consider this?
In the real world we machinists have to make a profit to cover costs. I don't appreciate having to compete with you the way you have went at this.
Please put yourself in my shoes and try to see this through my eyes.

Our Country has forgotten what Machiavelli taught us in The Prince The end does Not justify the means.

In closing,

I really do like you and I'm sure you will be a success in this world.
I wish all the best for you and I hopeto fly with you someday.
May God Bless and keep you,

Thank you Eric for your kind words.

One, I absolutely know why no one can make them for what I can. You have listed them.

Not to be rude, but I don't think I am competing with any projects Iv seen of yours. Machining is a service that we use to make nearly everything rocketry. But I honestly don't feel I am eating into your market. Sorry.

I have been looking into buying a CNC machine for fun, but as you know a good machine cost money, and no college kid has money. I am currently working with something I like doing, and it is helping me (importantly my parents) pay for college.

I know we have stepped on our feet a couple times on this forum Eric, but I completely respect you and am in awe of what you can make at your shop.

I am passionate about my fins just like you are passionate about your BaddAzz products.

Thanks again.

 

[Eric1]

I Understand your desire Bryce, Just want you to look at why I can not offer these because of you being able to undersell a Very High valued product.
I'm not asking you to stop , All I desire is to think about what you are doing in the broader spectrum.

Peace Bro,

 

[bandman444]

I Understand your desire Bryce, Just want you to look at why I can not offer these because of you being able to undersell a Very High valued product.
I'm not asking you to stop , All I desire is to think about what you are doing in the broader spectrum.

Peace Bro,

I don't believe there is a "broader spectrum" to 10 sets of aluminum in a small niche hobby. Just my opinion.

If you believe that the hobby is going to collapse because of what I am doing, I would be very interested in listening to that. But perhaps this isn't the thread.

Peace,

 

[Eric1]

I don't believe there is a "broader spectrum" to 10 sets of aluminum in a small niche hobby. Just my opinion.

If you believe that the hobby is going to collapse because of what I am doing, I would be very interested in listening to that. But perhaps this isn't the thread.

Peace,

No Bryce The hobby won't collapse. I'm not that concerned about you making a few fins. I had hoped to were smart enough to see the logic and thought behind my words.
I'm sorry you can't understand me with out getting emotional. I never wanted to hurt your feelings.
Eric
I did not intend to pick a fight, I was trying to reason with you.

 

[bandman444]

Sorry Eric, dumb response from me.

No feelings, no fight, I sent you Pm asking for clarification.

Sorry for clearly not understanding.

 

[CarVac]

I'm not worried about the market for machining skills, but I thought about one of Eric's points when you first posted this thread:

At my school, I'm not allowed to use school equipment (specifically the machine shop; we're certainly allowed to use the Internet though) to run businesses, and I was wondering if you had the permission from the school to do what I'm not allowed to do.

...well, have you?

 

[edwinshap1]

I'd like to jump into this for a moment. When Bryce and I realized we could sell fins, we had no intent of making a permanent business out of it. Really I just wanted to be able to give the fins I designed to the world. We aren't really making much of any profit. Broken bits, coolant, and material cost eat through all of that. Everybody has said the fins are beautiful, and that's the point of it all. I had never seen a fin designed like mine in the hobby world until I created it, and I didn't want it to end when the project shredded.

Eric, I completely understand where you are coming from, but you also have to see that we are neither trying to take business from professional machine shops, nor are we trying to create an under priced market to skew prices. We're just working to make a little spending cash, that we are dumping right back into the machine shop, to keep designing and testing new parts.

 

[Eric1]

I understand and assume all of that Edwinshap. I just want you and Bryce to see what you are doing and to realize the effects it might have.
I only want the best for the both of you! Shame you are not east coasters, I would co-op both of you in my shop!
I promise I could teach you how to not break endmills!! God Bless you both.

 

[bandman444]

I promise I could teach you how to not break endmills!!

It was only once.

 

[maxvelocity]

Eric, this is exactly what I thought of the first time I saw this thread. I'm pretty sure schools aren't cool with this type of thing but I'm not much older then they are and I'm sure I would have probably tried to pull off the same thing when I was their age! This is why I didn't say anything. But I bet they will soon learn the way real business works and the reason why things like this cost what they do. That's what school is for right? I have just learned these concepts recently with our steel Fab business " one column cost how much? I can build that in two hours! " throw overhead insurances admin cost etc.

 

[Eric1]

Max I Love their Spirit. These are good young men. I find looking back I have done far worse to push the envelope.
Things is, If you don't pay the price some one else must. We are all connected.

 

[CarVac]

My one concern is whether they have permission from the school or not. They still haven't responded regarding this.

 

[edwinshap1]

I understand and assume all of that Edwinshap. I just want you and Bryce to see what you are doing and to realize the effects it might have.
I only want the best for the both of you! Shame you are not east coasters, I would co-op both of you in my shop!
I promise I could teach you how to not break endmills!! God Bless you both.

I would love to co-op in a machine shop, the tools are immensely useful.

And I hadn't thought of what effects it could have, only that I was getting the chance to design and redesign fins for various people, which is honestly very fun.

 

[beezwax]

Max I Love their Spirit. These are good young men. I find looking back I have done far worse to push the envelope.
Things is, If you don't pay the price some one else must. We are all connected.

I think you're coming down a bit hard on these kids. This was a very small and finite run of components, not a high volume or open-ended production. And it's a stretch to suggest that your business has suffered as a consequence. Do you even sell a similar item? I didn't see any fins under the "partzz" tab on your website. It's quite erroneous to assume that making and selling these ten sets of fins at a very (relatively) cheap price took ten sales away from you or some other custom parts manufacturer. What is more likely the case is that the ten people who bought these fins would not otherwise have bought them at all, at the much higher more typical market price. If they were trying to set this up as an ongoing business with the unfair advantage of subsized student shop access then yes it could be a problem for you in the long term. But as it is, the world now gets to see ten more experimental HPR builds than otherwise would have happened, and you still didn't lose a penny from your bottom line. And for the record, no I am not one of the ten people who bought a set of these fins. There is a similar kind of discussion going on in the "Black Friday Sales" thread:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?44636-Rocketry-Black-Friday-Sales&p=438962#post438962

 

[Eric1]

Bees, You just don't see it. I discussed this with Bryce and Edwin. I don't think I was to harsh.
As far as I'm concerned We are good and this topic needs no further discussion.

Peace

 

[beezwax]

Well okay that's a good way to not actually respond to any of my comments I'm glad you and Bryce and Edwin are cool, and if you're willing to include me in this convo then I'd be happy to hear where I misspoke or what it is I'm failing to see. Otherwise yes, end of discussion.

Peas

 

[Eric1]

Perhaps it didn't take away sale right away. I feel it plants the seed that this is what they are worth.
When you and I both know that is not the case. I am going to offer a similar product, but I can't do this for 200.00.
Nor should they. When they have to pay for the machine and all that goes with it I welcome the competition.
Competition in the market is what pushes advancement. Low balling below cost destroys the market.
While to the consumer it looks good, it is the kiss of death for innovation and jobs.

 

[cwbullet]

Perhaps it didn't take away sale right away. I feel it plants the seed that this is what they are worth.
When you and I both know that is not the case. I am going to offer a similar product, but I can't do this for 200.00.
Nor should they. When they have to pay for the machine and all that goes with it I welcome the competition.
Competition in the market is what pushes advancement. Low balling below cost destroys the market.
While to the consumer it looks good, it is the kiss of death for innovation and jobs.

I actually agree. Competition is good. Both make an awesome product..

 

[patelldp]

I am going to offer a similar product, but I can't do this for 200.00.
Nor should they. When they have to pay for the machine and all that goes with it I welcome the competition.
Competition in the market is what pushes advancement. Low balling below cost destroys the market.

You plan to, but currently you are not. How could they have known that?

They have access to a machine to make fins for $200. Everyone's costs are different.

Their biggest concern with this limited run is whether or not you can legally produce a marketable product on a non-for-profit mill and sell them. I think that that would be my biggest concern. Maybe they have a change of heart and start giving them away!

 

[troj]

Your last concern matches mine. Any such facilities I'm familiar with, it is explicitly against the rules to use the equipment for items that are for sale

Violating those policies can lead to the loss of access for others

 

[beezwax]

Perhaps it didn't take away sale right away. I feel it plants the seed that this is what they are worth.
When you and I both know that is not the case. I am going to offer a similar product, but I can't do this for 200.00.
Nor should they. When they have to pay for the machine and all that goes with it I welcome the competition.
Competition in the market is what pushes advancement. Low balling below cost destroys the market.
While to the consumer it looks good, it is the kiss of death for innovation and jobs.

Hmm well I understand your concerns here, if it this limited time offer did manage to fix a price point in the public's mind. I still think that unlikely as the original post came right out and said this was a much cheaper price than you'd be able to find elsewhere, so people knew they were jumping on a "deal." But in any case I appreciate you clarifying your objection, because although it's debatable whether or not these ten set of fins hurt your business, being dismissive of people on this board definitely will.

Their biggest concern with this limited run is whether or not you can legally produce a marketable product on a non-for-profit mill and sell them.

This is an entirely separate question, and I think their silence on this point probably gives you your answer.

 

[rfjustin]

Competition in the market is what pushes advancement. Low balling below cost destroys the market.

Eric,

I agree. My advice, let it go for now, I think your point has been made.

On a side note, keep doing what you are doing, you make kick ass products like the Space Cowboy and people are willing to pay good money for a quality product!



Justin

 

[Marc_G]

Your last concern matches mine. Any such facilities I'm familiar with, it is explicitly against the rules to use the equipment for items that are for sale

Violating those policies can lead to the loss of access for others

I have attended two schools where there were classes that included creating a product and selling it in a manner like what these guys are doing. In both cases it was an explicit fact that the run must be limited and could not continue on school equipment past the term end. I offer this only to point out that rules probably vary significantly from place to place and this activity described here isn't necessarily against the rules.

 

[dixontj93060]

Eric,

I agree. My advice, let it go for now, I think your point has been made.

On a side note, keep doing what you are doing, you make kick ass products like the Space Cowboy and people are willing to pay good money for a quality product!



Justin

I agree. There is a gap right now in the market place left by Hawk Mountain's exit and the (in my opinion) poor design of the Rouse-Tech fin can which is just waiting to be filled.

 

[SCP]

Did the item have to be sold at a competitive market value? I would think for a class like that to be effective (and teach students about a real viable business model), items like labor, capital investment and depreciation, utilities, profit, engineering (development) overhead time, etc forever, would have to be factored in? What a great idea for a class though, true real world stuff. Wish I had that opportunity back in school, would have loved that class.

I have attended two schools where there were classes that included creating a product and selling it in a manner like what these guys are doing. In both cases it was an explicit fact that the run must be limited and could not continue on school equipment past the term end. I offer this only to point out that rules probably vary significantly from place to place and this activity described here isn't necessarily against the rules.

 

[Quaranta]

I grew up in Annapolis, MD and while in HS/College worked in one of the high end sailmaking shops in town. During down time, or on our own time, we used the equipment and scraps to make a bevy of sails for our own boats... (our definition of scrap was a bit different than the shop owners, :wink:... but he was always cool with it... he loved to see us learn and that we were interested). We'd repair our friends' sails for free (other kids), but we never sold/charged for anything.

Bryce, your fins look amazing. (I considered a set as rocket bling). Continue your education and keep learning. You'll go far.

 

[cwbullet]

Any progress on these?

 

[KenRico]

Hey Bryce , keep innovating and using the tools you have available to pursue your interests .

It is out of line to chastise you over 10 sets of fins, thats like EA complaining about Rovio giving away games, Microsoft belly aching over Google not charging for an OS , or saying the Jart should cost as much as a Goblin so that Madcow can maintain their dealer margin.

Think it was a clever way to recoup time and materials, and some extra practice with the machines to truly master the desired process. I try to order extra material incase something clitches -but if the run works out then I want to cash out quickly NOT hold out for a retail sale for the extra.

Eric cannot compete with you, but if you choose to - find some more things to RETAIL , put up a store and compete with him !

Then I could buy a set of your kick *ss fins for my L3 project

Kenny