Avoiding getting $crewed on water heater replacement

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Marc_G

Marc_G

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So, my water heater started leaking last night, and I'm a bit annoyed at the situation for replacement.

I ask this assembled body, how crappy are these business practices, and was I unreasonable in my request?

I won't mention the company, because in the end I did pretty much get my way, and this is more a general rant than a flame-the-plumber post.

Some history is needed. Five years ago, my 50 gal water heater started leaking. It was a significant leak, soaked up by some throw carpeting and fortunately a drain tile opening was nearby and most of the water went down there. The water heater was 8 years old.

It was a Saturday so I knew I was screwed. I wound up going with one of the bigger local plumbing operations. I'll call them The Plumber$. Their slogan: "We flush your money down Our drains!"

Now, last time I had had to get a water heater replaced, back in the '90s, I called up a local plumber, negotiated over what size / warranty etc. heater I wanted, and a few hours later he showed up. It cost me about $250 more than I could have bought a comparable quality heater for at Home Depot. So for reference, it was at the time about HD price plus 75%.

So 5 years ago I was expecting this job to cost me about $800 for a midrange 50 gal gas heater with 12 year warranty.

The actual cost for a 50 gal 6 year warranty (all the guy had on his truck, and it was Saturday so it was that or nothing) was $1500. I stared at him in shock. But we had a new baby, and the wife was not amused, and I shelled out.

According to the guy this was a "Premium quality heater, with a full 6 year warranty, backed by our yearly service (flushing) and parts/labor warranty."

Fine. Paid the guy, hot water flowed, and life moved on. Keep in mind, I'm competent to replace the heater, even a gas one, but this thing is down in the basement, and I didn't have local friends to help with the grunt work.

Time passes. I do the yearly maintenance visits with the company like I paid for.

Last night I was down there and noticed some small moistness around the concrete at the base of the thing. Crap. :dark:

This morning it's a biggish puddle. I turn off the gas to it, turn off the incoming water, and head to work for important meetings. Wife goes to work too. Also made sure if there was a leak of the 50 gals, it would be directed to the drain.

While at work I call the company that put it in, tell them it's leaking, and the polite lady tells me she can get a guy there at 5 pm. Great. Perfect. I also told her I'm interested in upgrading to a 75 gallon, what would that cost. "Sorry, only the plumber can do the quoting, but I'll tell him to be ready for that." Fine. I do my work, pick up the kids (wife works late tonight), get home before 5, and the guy shows up nice and early. He sits in his van for 15 minutes, apparently on the phone.

But he rings my bell at 5 on the dot ("On time or it's you we pay!") and is a pleasant and competent-looking fellow.

I take him down and show him the thing, which now has a slightly larger puddle under it. I say, "I think she's done." He says, "Yep."

He said: "I hear you are interested in a 75 Gallon model?"
I reply: "Yes, though a new 50 gal is free under warranty, it would be worth a bit to upgrade. Please run the numbers."

He went to his truck, and came back shortly. Here's my first gripe:

Cost to replace 50 gallon heater: free :)
Cost to upgrade to 75 gallon: $1987

Yeah, two large to upgrade to a bigger heater. My shocked look comes back on. "Huh? Cost difference between a 50 and a 75 is like $200-300 bucks!"

Apparently they can't (won't, actually... no laws of physics are being broken!) install anything other than a 1 for 1 replacement without charging me the whole warranty shtick. I told him I just wanted the heater, not an extension of the warranty beyond the original 13 months I have left. Nope, no can do. :mad: And he doens't have a 75 on the truck anyway. :dark:

OK, fine, just swap out the silly thing with a 50 gallon. He heads down to get some serial numbers (why? I wonder... he has all this info already). I hear him on the phone down there too.

He comes up and tells me... "Oh, sorry. Your's is a Premium heater, and now we just do Bradford White. Haven't carried Premium for a year and a half."

I give him some sort of eye. Crook, stink, evil, not sure. Then I put on my curious face. "Oh?"

"The Bradford White is a great heater; more expensive. There's a cost difference ...." and he lifts up a pad; I can see it's got a three digit number on it, four hundred and something I think.

"Not my problem. Just swap it out. It's under warranty. I don't care about the brand so much."

"No, you don't understand. It's after 5 and I can't get a Premium until tomorrow."

Part of me was about to explode but I kept my cool.

"So, you want me to miss work tomorrow too, because your dispatcher didn't realize my 5 year old heater was a cheaper make than you've been selling for a year and a half, and you want me to wait a day at my inconvenience, so you can source a crappier heater than the one on your truck right now?"

I explained that I moved my work around to be here, and he was gonna replace the heater with whatever he had on the truck, or there was going to be trouble. I was very polite, yet firm.

He's just the messenger, I know. He calls his manager, who I'll call Bill (not real name ) who tells me I should stay home tomorrow and they'll come right out in the morning.

Uh-unh. I'm not taking off work, unless you want to reimburse me for my PTO day. That will be $1500, please.

He stammered.

I also told him that my wife was coming home late and there's now way I'm explaining to her that she doesn't get a hot shower tonight or in the morning before work because YOU don't want to honor your warranty claim.

He stammered some more.

He told me that I could turn the water back on, that the leak was still minor, and it would last until replacment tomorrow evening so I wouldn't miss work.

"So, you'll put into writing that you're assuming responsibilities for damages in the event there's a blowout?"

Stammering turned into sputtering.

I told him: "Look, you've already rolled the truck. Is the cost difference really worth all this? I really think you should eat the difference and just get it done."

He eventually agreed. The work is done and the guy is cleaning up right now.

But jeez folks, should it have required me to be this much of a hard a$$ to get The Plumber$ to honor their claim?

My wife wouldn't have had the balls to stand up to them, nor would many people I think.

First they overcharge based on a claim, then they do bait and switch things.

:dark:

Sorry, I had to rant. I know running an operation costs more and more (insurance, GAS, etc.). But it seems excessive...
 
In general, I hate plumbers. Most that I have used have done shoddy work. On at least two occasions I have ripped out their work and redid all their copper routes with better solder joints and far more accessability in tight spaces.

Plumbing is actually very easy. I put in my whole basement bathroom a couple years ago; including using a jack hammer to go through the concrete floor and exposing the roughed-in sewage lines. Compared to that switching out a water heater is like falling off a log. Next time consider doing it yourself. BTW, your water heaters shouldn't be going out that fast. Test your water. You may need to put a filtration and softening system on the incoming line (another easy job).
 
Last edited:
My guess is this particular outfit, the plumber who does the work gets a cut of the money for anything he installs. Therefore, it's in his financial best interest to sell you something New.

'tis why I like the small, independent shops for stuff like this -- in my experience, they treat their customers well.

-Kevin
 
Good thing plumbing isn't rocket science.... or you'd been doing it yourself! :D

Similar frustration here. I had to replace one last year - $85 for the service call to say, "yep, that's a problem - gonna have to replace it." , then another $850 the next day to basically swap it out.
 
Always call Bill Spadafora for your plumbing needs - he will give you the NAR discount.

Thank you for reminding me to flush my heater!
 
Putting in a 75 gallon HWH is not an upgreade, it's an added expense you don't need if you don't run out of water.

I'd go and speak to you local plumbing inspector. It sounds like a rip off on a warrantee, which I assume you have in writing. If the inspector is a good guy, he'll speak to the plumber, who has to get permits from him. No fix, no more work in town.

If that doesn't work, complain to the better business bureau, the state licensing board and the AGs office. In many states, a job over $1K is supposed to have a written contract, and a permit.....

I also would not use these bait and switch crooks again.

Bob
 
Indeed.

Since they did agree to do the job, and I've now got a proper water heater working at the time they committed to, I'd be hard pressed to file any official complaint. But Angie's list is an idea... I'm a member.
 
I do a little remodeling, handyman on the side, and was doing some work this winter, in a basement around the water heater, and noticed a store tag still attached that said 1976. I asked the home owner if it was that old , and he stated it was. I stated he was lucky to get that much time out of one. His reply, "luck has nothing to do with it. I drain and flush it twice a year, and replace the anode bar every three or four years". We cant do much about the cost of a new heater, but maybe we can do required maintence and get them to last a little longer. Ive been in my house 26 years and just put my 3rd
in, so im in that 8-10 year range that so many people seem to get. I never drain or replace the anode bar, so maybe there is something to regular maintence.
 
Well, I bought my house 23 years ago. The heater was old then. In fact, the engineer I had inspect the house actually warned me to not open the drain valve since it probably would not properly seal again. So here I am , 23 years later. Never have drained the bloody thing but still getting hot water.
Guess I should look to see just how old it is...
 
I replaced mine last year, $230 plus tax but it was only a 40 gal economy model. It took me about an hour to change out. This thread reminded me that it's time to flush. Thanks
 
My house had the original water heater in it when I moved in. 20 some years old. I lived alone (and now again!). One day I came home from work and went downstairs to do some laundry. There was this odd smell in the basement. Kept sniffing around.... Realized it was melty plastic smell. I remembered that the water heater had the warranty card still on the side in a plastic bag. The lower part of the water heater was so hot that the bag had melted all over the side of the water heater. :eyepop: Shut that puppy off and called my local plumber! $800.00 later I had a new heater. And now 15 years later, I hear you're suppose to drain & flush them??????? :y:
I'll bet if I open the valve, it'll never shut off again.
Oh well. live & learn. Maybe the next heater will get cared for better :bangpan:

Adrian
 
Whether or not to drain & flush is a point of disagreement between plumbers -- I've heard some say you need to do it regularly. I've heard others say that you're more likely to get a leaky valve if you do it.

I'll now curse ours by saying it's 15 years old and hasn't been touched, other than to adjust the temperature once -- 3 teenage boys use a lot of hot water! :y:

-Kevin
 
Yep. Car sales, Insurance Companies, Plumbers....whatever the business, you gotta be a D**K sometimes.......well, with insurance companies you have to be a D**K about 75% of the time.
 
Last year when I returned from my father's funeral, I came back to a water leak at the TOP of the tank that got into the wire nuts. An arc and a spark later, my 9 year-old A.O. Smith 40 gallon water heater was done.

A plumber came out and replaced it with a 50 gal A.O. Smith. Total damage I think was in the neighborhood of $850. I've never drained it nor replaced the anode. I am on a whole-house softener.

Should I drain and replace regularly?
 
Bazookadale said:
Always call Bill Spadafora for your plumbing needs - he will give you the NAR discount.

Thank you for reminding me to flush my heater!
Click to expand...

Yeah but paying for the traveling time from MA to IN will make the other guy look like a bargain.

I'm not going to defend the plumber because he sounds like one of those flat rate guys that I detest. They make their mechanics salesmen looking for a way to upgrade the job.

However, he's not totally wrong. I'm not sure how he presented it when he sold the original heater but the warranty comes from the water heater manufacturer not the plumber. They will replace the heater for free but charge a handling fee that's typically around $100. I'm not sure what the prices are in the midwest but around here a 50 gallon 6 year water heater would have cost around $1000 five years ago. Since he said he'd replace the water heater for free I'm assuming he added on another $500 to warranty the labor when he sold the original heater. Since most heaters make it past the warranty and since he already charged enough to cover the replacement it's a money making deal for him. As for the upgrade to 75 gallon, the manufacturer will only replace a leaking water heater with exactly the same heater. Why? They never see the leaking heater. The plumber only returns the tag that has the model and serial number on it. People who want to upgrade their heater might be tempted to have an imaginary leaker. And unless you have a huge bathtub or a large family that likes to take showers one after the other, 50 gallons is plenty. 90% of the heaters I install are 40 gallons.


Now, to address the plumber hater. You must have gone with the guy with the lowest price. I can teach somebody how to solder in half an hour. If you had to redo their work twice you're definitely hiring the wrong guy. As for plumbing being easy, you're right it's not all that tough now (40 or 50 years ago it took a lot more skill) but I'm constantly amazed at how badly non plumbers manage to screw it up.

Lastly, water heater life is a function of what's in your water and the pressure in your water main. Where I am the water is very soft and slightly acidic. You can drain your tank and change the anode every year and the damn thing will still leak in 8 to 12 years. In other parts of the country they last forever. I remember visiting someone in CA and hearing the noise the heater made because it was full of lime deposits. The heater was ancient. Gas water heaters are glass lined steel tanks. The glass is put on the tank as a powder sprinkled on the red hot steel. It's not very thick and it's less flexible than the steel. Every time you slam a faucet off the tank flexes slightly and eventually the glass lining develops tiny cracks. The water finds it's way through the cracks and rusts through the steel. They also fail at the welds. I was amazed to learn the that cylindrical part of the tank and the ends were glazed separately and then welded together. The heat from welding is supposed to melt the glass and fuse it at the seam. It works most of the time.
 
Water heaters are funny critters. I used to be in the remodel bizz and R&R'd a ton of them. Basically when you buy one nowadays, start saving for the next one. Typically electric are good for 5-6 years and the your on borrrowed time--gas is maybe around 10yrs realisticly. Some go much longer for no particular reason. The quality of the water has a lot to do with it. Basically , crap settles out of suspension in the tank and begins to erode parts and seals through electrolosis,heat, preasure,so on and so on. It really depends on your water supplier and whats in the water . It can vary from county to county. A little maintenance from time to time is a good thing and --as a rule--will extend the life. But, it has to be consistant. From my experience, about every 2 months do a quick flush under preasure. don't drain the whole tank just knock the crap off the bottom . Something like a 1 or 2 minute washout is all you need. One good gage for your water quality. Check your toilet tank. If you have residue on the bottom -typical with well water-or more likely a crusty plack around the valve body metal parts---gives you an insight as to whats going on with the heater. The water heater flows more water than the toilet but as cold water is injected into it ,minerals and such fall out of suspension and cause problems. Hope this helps someone in the future . BTW, You guys build rockets--next time try DIY--The worst that can happen is you have to call a plumber if you screw it up , but I have a feeling you'll figure it out.
 
hornet driver said:
BTW, You guys build rockets--next time try DIY--The worst that can happen is you have to call a plumber if you screw it up , but I have a feeling you'll figure it out.
Click to expand...
I dunno, that seems like it could end badly. :D
Bleve_Mythbusters_235_DJFs.jpg
 
By the way, tankless is the way to go! Up front cost is high but it really is the way to go in the end.
 
I should have at least 5 good years on the current new (gas) water heater. AFter that I'll look at putting in a tankless system, using a decent plumber rather than one of the flat rate crowd. Tankless systems have gotten pretty good and in 5 years should have a really good value/price ratio.

:)
 
I sincerely empathize.
Last year we got pronged on our well pump.

8G's for something I could have done for for less than a g.

But, life had too much else going on at the time.

Sometimes you have 10 fingers and 37 holes in the dike.

So as Billy Joel said, "I rub my neck and I write em a check. And they go their merry way."
 
Marc_G said:
So, my water heater started leaking last night, and I'm a bit annoyed at the situation for replacement.

I ask this assembled body, how crappy are these business practices, and was I unreasonable in my request?

I won't mention the company, because in the end I did pretty much get my way, and this is more a general rant than a flame-the-plumber post.

Some history is needed. Five years ago, my 50 gal water heater started leaking. It was a significant leak, soaked up by some throw carpeting and fortunately a drain tile opening was nearby and most of the water went down there. The water heater was 8 years old.

It was a Saturday so I knew I was screwed. I wound up going with one of the bigger local plumbing operations. I'll call them The Plumber$. Their slogan: "We flush your money down Our drains!"

Now, last time I had had to get a water heater replaced, back in the '90s, I called up a local plumber, negotiated over what size / warranty etc. heater I wanted, and a few hours later he showed up. It cost me about $250 more than I could have bought a comparable quality heater for at Home Depot. So for reference, it was at the time about HD price plus 75%.

So 5 years ago I was expecting this job to cost me about $800 for a midrange 50 gal gas heater with 12 year warranty.

The actual cost for a 50 gal 6 year warranty (all the guy had on his truck, and it was Saturday so it was that or nothing) was $1500. I stared at him in shock. But we had a new baby, and the wife was not amused, and I shelled out.

According to the guy this was a "Premium quality heater, with a full 6 year warranty, backed by our yearly service (flushing) and parts/labor warranty."

Fine. Paid the guy, hot water flowed, and life moved on. Keep in mind, I'm competent to replace the heater, even a gas one, but this thing is down in the basement, and I didn't have local friends to help with the grunt work.

Time passes. I do the yearly maintenance visits with the company like I paid for.

Last night I was down there and noticed some small moistness around the concrete at the base of the thing. Crap. :dark:

This morning it's a biggish puddle. I turn off the gas to it, turn off the incoming water, and head to work for important meetings. Wife goes to work too. Also made sure if there was a leak of the 50 gals, it would be directed to the drain.

While at work I call the company that put it in, tell them it's leaking, and the polite lady tells me she can get a guy there at 5 pm. Great. Perfect. I also told her I'm interested in upgrading to a 75 gallon, what would that cost. "Sorry, only the plumber can do the quoting, but I'll tell him to be ready for that." Fine. I do my work, pick up the kids (wife works late tonight), get home before 5, and the guy shows up nice and early. He sits in his van for 15 minutes, apparently on the phone.

But he rings my bell at 5 on the dot ("On time or it's you we pay!") and is a pleasant and competent-looking fellow.

I take him down and show him the thing, which now has a slightly larger puddle under it. I say, "I think she's done." He says, "Yep."

He said: "I hear you are interested in a 75 Gallon model?"
I reply: "Yes, though a new 50 gal is free under warranty, it would be worth a bit to upgrade. Please run the numbers."

He went to his truck, and came back shortly. Here's my first gripe:

Cost to replace 50 gallon heater: free :)
Cost to upgrade to 75 gallon: $1987

Yeah, two large to upgrade to a bigger heater. My shocked look comes back on. "Huh? Cost difference between a 50 and a 75 is like $200-300 bucks!"

Apparently they can't (won't, actually... no laws of physics are being broken!) install anything other than a 1 for 1 replacement without charging me the whole warranty shtick. I told him I just wanted the heater, not an extension of the warranty beyond the original 13 months I have left. Nope, no can do. :mad: And he doens't have a 75 on the truck anyway. :dark:

OK, fine, just swap out the silly thing with a 50 gallon. He heads down to get some serial numbers (why? I wonder... he has all this info already). I hear him on the phone down there too.

He comes up and tells me... "Oh, sorry. Your's is a Premium heater, and now we just do Bradford White. Haven't carried Premium for a year and a half."

I give him some sort of eye. Crook, stink, evil, not sure. Then I put on my curious face. "Oh?"

"The Bradford White is a great heater; more expensive. There's a cost difference ...." and he lifts up a pad; I can see it's got a three digit number on it, four hundred and something I think.

"Not my problem. Just swap it out. It's under warranty. I don't care about the brand so much."

"No, you don't understand. It's after 5 and I can't get a Premium until tomorrow."

Part of me was about to explode but I kept my cool.

"So, you want me to miss work tomorrow too, because your dispatcher didn't realize my 5 year old heater was a cheaper make than you've been selling for a year and a half, and you want me to wait a day at my inconvenience, so you can source a crappier heater than the one on your truck right now?"

I explained that I moved my work around to be here, and he was gonna replace the heater with whatever he had on the truck, or there was going to be trouble. I was very polite, yet firm.

He's just the messenger, I know. He calls his manager, who I'll call Bill (not real name ) who tells me I should stay home tomorrow and they'll come right out in the morning.

Uh-unh. I'm not taking off work, unless you want to reimburse me for my PTO day. That will be $1500, please.

He stammered.

I also told him that my wife was coming home late and there's now way I'm explaining to her that she doesn't get a hot shower tonight or in the morning before work because YOU don't want to honor your warranty claim.

He stammered some more.

He told me that I could turn the water back on, that the leak was still minor, and it would last until replacment tomorrow evening so I wouldn't miss work.

"So, you'll put into writing that you're assuming responsibilities for damages in the event there's a blowout?"

Stammering turned into sputtering.

I told him: "Look, you've already rolled the truck. Is the cost difference really worth all this? I really think you should eat the difference and just get it done."

He eventually agreed. The work is done and the guy is cleaning up right now.

But jeez folks, should it have required me to be this much of a hard a$$ to get The Plumber$ to honor their claim?

My wife wouldn't have had the balls to stand up to them, nor would many people I think.

First they overcharge based on a claim, then they do bait and switch things.

:dark:

Sorry, I had to rant. I know running an operation costs more and more (insurance, GAS, etc.). But it seems excessive...
Click to expand...

Don't be sorry for the rant! I have a lot of respect for people who put others in their place! Right on! I wouldn't have been as nice to the manager...what an a$$!!!! You are right what a hassle just to get the job done. Now I would file a compliant with the BBB and have them investigate their business
 
Marc, as others have said, you handled it well. Unfortunately, more and more businesses seem to be going this route and we, the consumers, have to fight more and more to get what we want without getting screwed.

I like the liability statement too......
 

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