Moderator or dictator?

[Pat_B]

I've noticed plenty of comments over the years about the heavy handed moderation. One thing that has gotten much worse is that the moderators usually seem to get in the last word about the subject before closing it.

It's one thing to simply state that a thread is getting closed. It's another for the moderator to continue with the thread by being part of the discussion by providing their own opinions, then closing the thread before anyone else can respond. That's no longer moderation.

A few of the moderators are especially bad with this and it really starts to make these forums useless after awhile. Seems like the vendor forum in particular gets far too many posts closed when someone's opinion differs from that of the moderator.

Why even have a vendor forum if there are going to be a number of companies who are the 'golden gooses' for which no one can speak badly about? It's too bad that there are a number of vendors who have stolen money from their customers and for which their threads have been closed in this forum once their customers start to complain. What are you guys protecting?

[dcshrum]

shrug..... go here -> http://forums.rocketshoppe.com

[rocketlaw]

:pop:

[Fred22]

I have no idea what you are talking about when say we have golden goose companies? I also have been moderating longer then anybody else so I think I would know.
In as regards to having the last word well its generally an explanantion of why the thread was locked. People get upset if we don't say why so you can't have it both ways.
Perhaps you could be a little more specific and point out paticular threads as opposed to the broad brush approach:)
I do not suffer any delusions of grandeur for a chore that is often thankless and difficult. I do it so over 2000 rocket enthusiasts can communicate in a safe friendly environment.
Cheers
Fred

[UPscaler]

:pop:
You are going to need more popcorn for this one.

[Peartree]

Pat, I can't and won't speak to all of what you ask but I will to the last one.

I really hope that we don't seem to be playing favorites among the vendors. What all the mods are trying hard to do, is to allow real reporting of real facts with real discussion while at the same time preventing dogpiles where everybody with an ax to grind jumps in and heaps abuse on a vendor (or anyone else).

I fully understand that some vendors may have problems with attitude, customer service or quality control. We both allow and want these issues to be reported. What's difficult is finding the line where reporting and reasonable discussion stops and abuse begins.

None of this is taken lightly and this has been a subject of considerable discussion among all of the "staff." If you can think of ways to walk this razors edge better, I certainly would welcome you comments and suggestions via PM. Likewise, if you think that a thread has been closed in error or a particular mod/admin has gone over the line we'd like to hear from your specific objections. All you need to do is click the "report post" button and I assure you that all of us will discuss your objections.

Beyond that, Kevin has offered Moderator arbitration if you feel that any mod/admin (including Kevin) has gone over the line. See his original thread:

http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?t=7799&highlight=arbitration

Our goal is to make this a place where everyone can participate without being ganged up on. When we cross the line, we invite you to tell us why you think so.

[Pat_B]

Fred- the particular thread was the Launch Mag thread in the Vendor section. It was closed only after the mod got in his comments. His 'comments' weren't about why the thread was being closed, but rather, were his opinions of the owners of Launch Mag being great people, then SLAM-- the door is shut for anyone to refute his comments.

In the past, other threads about Aerotech, Sheri... etc. were shut when disgruntled customers started to complain. For some reason those threads appeared to have been prematurely closed.

If a company rips off lots of people then it should be expected that the thread will contain lots of comments from those people.

Kind of reminds me of when newspapers print editorials but are careful (usually) to remind readers of any 'interest' they may have in the subject. In this particular case there were a number of people who 'benefited' from Launch Mag's generosity- ironically that generosity was paid for by taking money from others (for the purpose of subscriptions) then giving away to others. When those recipients of Launch Mag's money (actually OUR money) start having too much influence in these forums then these forums become useless.

[AKPilot]

Well the closed thread was directed specifically to me.

[Fred22]

Fred- the particular thread was the Launch Mag thread in the Vendor section. It was closed only after the mod got in his comments. His 'comments' weren't about why the thread was being closed, but rather, were his opinions of the owners of Launch Mag being great people, then SLAM-- the door is shut for anyone to refute his comments.

In the past, other threads about Aerotech, Sheri... etc. were shut when disgruntled customers started to complain. For some reason those threads appeared to have been prematurely closed.

If a company rips off lots of people then it should be expected that the thread will contain lots of comments from those people.

Kind of reminds me of when newspapers print editorials but are careful (usually) to remind readers of any 'interest' they may have in the subject. In this particular case there were a number of people who 'benefited' from Launch Mag's generosity- ironically that generosity was paid for by taking money from others (for the purpose of subscriptions) then giving away to others. When those recipients of Launch Mag's money (actually OUR money) start having too much influence in these forums then these forums become useless.

Well I would suggest Pat you use the arbitration link that John laid out for you and we will look at it. I have no idea who benefited from anything but I can assure you that staff here do the best they can and I do not beleive we show favouritism. There is a mechanism open to youand I believe its a good one.
Now about this popcorn icon thing why do folks do that? Does it help explain things or perhaps calm good folks doing their best to ask or answer questions? Whats the point? It kind of reminds me of children at a school calling out to others when theres a fight so they can al watch some poor sod getting whomped. Not anything I would care to do.
Cheers
fred

[Pat_B]

John- I think the main issue is for the moderators not have to have the 'last word' if their last word isn't directed towards the behaviors of the posters (I was thinking of you and almost typed 'pastors'). It's crummy form to use their moderator status to keep others form commenting on their comments.

[Bravo52]

I think Pat is charecterizing Bob's post all wrong. I think all Bob did was summarize the issue and then say why he was closing the thread. "Move on" as this is "all that needs to be said." Pretty much the same here......

[rocketlaw]

Two things:

First, the pocorn symbol represents (at least in this thread) that people are getting too emotionally involved in forums and need to take it down a notch. It is a public forum people, no need to hate on everyone and everything that you do not agree with. If the mods ever consistently do something I don't like, I will spend my time in another forum. Heck, I already spend most of my time on another forum.

Second, if you do not like the popcorn thing, then get rid of it.

No soup for you!
I now close this thread!
LOL! :p

[stickershock23]

I've noticed plenty of comments over the years about the heavy handed moderation. One thing that has gotten much worse is that the moderators usually seem to get in the last word about the subject before closing it.

It's one thing to simply state that a thread is getting closed. It's another for the moderator to continue with the thread by being part of the discussion by providing their own opinions, then closing the thread before anyone else can respond. That's no longer moderation.

A few of the moderators are especially bad with this and it really starts to make these forums useless after awhile. Seems like the vendor forum in particular gets far too many posts closed when someone's opinion differs from that of the moderator.

Why even have a vendor forum if there are going to be a number of companies who are the 'golden gooses' for which no one can speak badly about? It's too bad that there are a number of vendors who have stolen money from their customers and for which their threads have been closed in this forum once their customers start to complain. What are you guys protecting?




Amen brother, amen.

[AKPilot]

Well with the 'closed' thread directed to me specifically by name, I'm probably in a unique position to say how I feel about it (and get tongue's wagging as the former owner).

Why is it addressed to me specifically by name? Or is that rhetorical?

[gpoehlein]

Two things:

First, the pocorn symbol represents (at least in this thread) that people are getting too emotionally involved in forums and need to take it down a notch. It is a public forum people, no need to hate on everyone and everything that you do not agree with. If the mods ever consistently do something I don't like, I will spend my time in another forum. Heck, I already spend most of my time on another forum.

Second, if you do not like the popcorn thing, then get rid of it.

No soup for you!
I now close this thread!
LOL! :p


Naw - I think it just means that the popcorn poster is ready to sit back and watch the fur fly! :p

[The EGE]

Naw - I think it just means that the popcorn poster is ready to sit back and watch the fur fly! :p

Precisely (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PassThePopcorn). :pop:

[luke strawwalker]

Well, I can see both sides of it.

Having been publicly 'slapped' by a moderator here before and then 'slapped' again for responding (like who wouldn't??) and having the moderator post some crappy comment and then lock the thread, I can see where the OP is coming from.

I see where Fred is coming from as well. I don't want to dredge up ancient history here (why I'm NOT going to mention names) but here's how I look at it, and how I (myself and me) would handle it...

Seems to me that making a crappy comment, posting a 'slapdown', or 'lecturing' on how all the posters are WRONG (in the moderator's opinion, which he is entitled to as much as anyone else, but others are equally entitled to disagree) and then immediately locking a thread is just rather childish and unprofessional.

I can see the need, given the atmosphere desired to be maintained here, that occassionally threads might need to be locked, because of personal attacks, heated emotional content that will NEVER result in a 'meeting of the minds' or any general agreement, etc. However, I think the best way to handle such a need is to simply state something to the effect of "thread too heated and causing flaming or attacks, so it is now CLOSED" and leave it at that. Issuing a long tirade by the moderator before shutting it down on the mod's opinion of the issue at hand, or issuing a 'slapdown' or whatever PUBLICLY IN SAID THREAD and then immediately locking, is just "getting in a cheap shot" IMHO and uncalled for.

I personally think that would go a LONG way to establishing more respect for mod's actions... there's a right way and a wrong way to do it, so Grandma used to tell me...

Just thought I'd throw that out there for your consideration... just my :2:

Later! OL JR :)

PS. I don't see ANY problem with posting one's experiences with a vendor, etc... whether good, bad, or ugly. If the vendor is TRYING to do the right thing and wants to tell their side of it, they SHOULD and they have nothing to be ashamed of. If not, well, that says a lot too...

That is valuable information in itself!

[Stymye]

I stay out of these things unless I feel have something to offer to the discussion

but these people with popcorn,and popping in with ,precisely,,amen brother and other usless comments......I find that often just as annoying. some people just can't stay out of anything.


It this(the mods/operators) sandbox, If I don't like how it's run ...I just move along, unless I feel I'm personally done wrong.

not all rocket forums are run the same way , but atleast there are options.

It seems the mod bashing is a bit too heavy here,,and even on other forums tword TRF.

[Peartree]

Some good points have been made by several people. All i can say is to reiterate that we really *are* trying to be as fair and impartial as possible.

If seventeen people have bad experiences with a vendor and all of the want to state what happened to them, I don't think I'd try to stop them. Where the line gets crossed, is where the same two or three repeatedly post the same thing they've already said with an apparent ax to grind.

Like I said, finding the middle ground so both sides are treated fairly isn't always easy and we won't always get it right.

If you think we got it wrong you have two options.

a) Click "Report Post" and tell us why you think we messed up.

b) Ask for arbitration.

Reporting a post really is important. There are hundreds of posts a day. i can barely keep up with the two forums that I am responsible for let alone all the others. Most of the time what happens in HPR or propulsion (and many others) is invisible to me unless someone asks me to look at it. If a mod makes a call, chances are, he/she is the only one who may have seen it. Often they will let the rest of us know that they did something, but if no one complains/reports it, I would often assume that no one had a problem with it. I just don't have time to second guess the other mods and read everything that they are doing unless someone thinks I have a reason to.

If you want to make the forum better, we'd appreciate your help to make it so.

[AKPilot]

The message to John, the arbitrator, was sent and I communicated with him yesterday and well as Kevin. And it's my viewpoint based on personal experiences that it was personal - especially having discussed things with the same moderator in person and as previous TRF owner.

It is a bit beneath the belt for a moderator to jump in, mention an individual by name (when other similar comments were written throughout and after), tell them to shut-up, and then close the thread.

No violation had occurred. Sharing of personal experiences, without derogatory or personal attacks, both good and bad isn't a violation; it keeps businesses and vendors honest.

Again based on experiences, it appears that that someone took the post personally, reported it, and that the moderator (who also has a personal issue with someone), took advantage of the opportunity to step in; without warning the masses.

[WiK]

It is a bit beneath the belt for a moderator to jump in, mention an individual by name (when other similar comments were written throughout and after), tell them to shut-up, and then close the thread.


Careful you don't go putting words into Bob's mouth here. Nobody has been told to "shut up", only to "move on". Slight difference in meaning there.

Phil

[Marlin523]

Hey Peartree - Thanks for moderating.

[AKPilot]

I just noticed that Bob finally edited his original message, in the Launch thread, yesterday afternoon.

Thank you.

[luke strawwalker]

It is a bit beneath the belt for a moderator to jump in, mention an individual by name (when other similar comments were written throughout and after), tell them to shut-up, and then close the thread.

.


Funny how that depends on "whose ox is getting gored"...

But then lots of funny stuff happens when the shoe is on the other foot.

later! OL JR :)

[Fred22]

Funny how that depends on "whose ox is getting gored"...

But then lots of funny stuff happens when the shoe is on the other foot.

later! OL JR :)

How does this add to a positive resolution of this situation? How does this add to a difficult conversation? If you have a problem with someone I would suggest you use a PM.

[Fred22]

I stay out of these things unless I feel have something to offer to the discussion

but these people with popcorn,and popping in with ,precisely,,amen brother and other usless comments......I find that often just as annoying. some people just can't stay out of anything.


It this(the mods/operators) sandbox, If I don't like how it's run ...I just move along, unless I feel I'm personally done wrong.

not all rocket forums are run the same way , but atleast there are options.

It seems the mod bashing is a bit too heavy here,,and even on other forums tword TRF.
I agree I have never found discord amongst good folks even remotely amusing.
Cheers
fred

[Fred22]

Well, I can see both sides of it.

Having been publicly 'slapped' by a moderator here before and then 'slapped' again for responding (like who wouldn't??) and having the moderator post some crappy comment and then lock the thread, I can see where the OP is coming from.

I see where Fred is coming from as well. I don't want to dredge up ancient history here (why I'm NOT going to mention names) but here's how I look at it, and how I (myself and me) would handle it...

Seems to me that making a crappy comment, posting a 'slapdown', or 'lecturing' on how all the posters are WRONG (in the moderator's opinion, which he is entitled to as much as anyone else, but others are equally entitled to disagree) and then immediately locking a thread is just rather childish and unprofessional.

I can see the need, given the atmosphere desired to be maintained here, that occassionally threads might need to be locked, because of personal attacks, heated emotional content that will NEVER result in a 'meeting of the minds' or any general agreement, etc. However, I think the best way to handle such a need is to simply state something to the effect of "thread too heated and causing flaming or attacks, so it is now CLOSED" and leave it at that. Issuing a long tirade by the moderator before shutting it down on the mod's opinion of the issue at hand, or issuing a 'slapdown' or whatever PUBLICLY IN SAID THREAD and then immediately locking, is just "getting in a cheap shot" IMHO and uncalled for.

I personally think that would go a LONG way to establishing more respect for mod's actions... there's a right way and a wrong way to do it, so Grandma used to tell me...

Just thought I'd throw that out there for your consideration... just my :2:

Later! OL JR :)

PS. I don't see ANY problem with posting one's experiences with a vendor, etc... whether good, bad, or ugly. If the vendor is TRYING to do the right thing and wants to tell their side of it, they SHOULD and they have nothing to be ashamed of. If not, well, that says a lot too...

That is valuable information in itself!
Nobody likes being having their actions called into question on a forum about rocketry or anything else. I can empathise with that as I do not enjoy having to ocasionally speak to the actions of someone. It is especially difficult with those whom you consider worthy of respect 99.9% of the time.
I have never seen Bob Krech act in a manner that could be characterised as childish or unprofesional. He is IMO an extremely intelligent person who takes time out of a very busy productive life to help around here. He is a gentlemen and a consumate professional. The only thing unprofessional about Bob around here is he does not get paid for the time spent here. Troy as well has done much for this place and he is a fine person in his own right . I find this conversation unfortunate and I hope it is resolved to most folks satisfaction. The actions I find distasteful are those who simply chime in to express amusement about a difficult situation between good people.
Cheers
fred

[The EGE]

The actions I find distasteful are those who simply chime in to express amusement about a difficult situation between good people.
Cheers
fred

My apologies. I was out of line.

[Pat_B]

It should be noted that Mark Mayfield is still very much in business and is active in a number of publishing forums on the Internet. What's so damaging about closing a thread where the mod gets the last word is that his comments can't be refuted. So despite what Bob said about MM Publishing no longer being in business- it is simply not true.

[RoyAtl]

Now about this popcorn icon thing why do folks do that? Does it help explain things or perhaps calm good folks doing their best to ask or answer questions? Whats the point? It kind of reminds me of children at a school calling out to others when theres a fight so they can al watch some poor sod getting whomped. Not anything I would care to do.
Cheers
fred

That is exactly it, and in a way it is an attempt to defuse the situation with

A LITTLE HUMOR, FOLKS!!

sheesh!

[Mikus]

How does this add to a positive resolution of this situation? How does this add to a difficult conversation? If you have a problem with someone I would suggest you use a PM.

How does non-acknowledgement and "sweeping (it) under the rug" help? It's been well-known for a long time that some of the rocketry forums play favorites with their members.

I didn't pile on the thread in question because I never subscribed and didn't lose any money. But this incident would appear to validate my previous statement wouldn't it? :confused2:

*got Luke's back* ;)

[Fred22]

That is exactly it, and in a way it is an attempt to defuse the situation with

A LITTLE HUMOR, FOLKS!!

sheesh!

I agree this is us i guess :)CSe38dzJYkY
Hope i did that right. I like the big floppy hat myself :)
Cheers
fred

[Fred22]

How does non-acknowledgement and "sweeping (it) under the rug" help? It's been well-known for a long time that some of the rocketry forums play favorites with their members.

I didn't pile on the thread in question because I never subscribed and didn't lose any money. But this incident would appear to validate my previous statement wouldn't it? :confused2:

*got Luke's back* ;)

How is it sweeping it under the rug with 50 responces and over 1800 views before it was ended? You can also still read the entire thread.I am glad you're supporting your friend but with all due respect I would suggest examining the facts.
Cheers
fred

[Fred22]

My apologies. I was out of line.

Absolutely no problem. It takes guts to say that and class.
Cheers
fred

[mperdue]

It should be noted that Mark Mayfield is still very much in business and is active in a number of publishing forums on the Internet. What's so damaging about closing a thread where the mod gets the last word is that his comments can't be refuted. So despite what Bob said about MM Publishing no longer being in business- it is simply not true.
You are a real piece of work and, as usual, you are wrong.

[RangerStl]

Y....you are wrong.

I guess this is to mean that he is not in the publishing business or no longer self-employed in the publishing business?

N

[mperdue]

I guess this is to mean that he is not in the publishing business or no longer self-employed in the publishing business?

N
It means that Mark is no longer publishing a magazine - any magazine. Do you really think that he should have to give up his livelihood because he had a business fail? Are you and Pat suggesting that he can no longer write anything? The magazine folded - get over it.

Moderators - why is it OK for Pat to resurrect a closed thread here? Don't you have some rules against that?

[RangerStl]

It means that Mark is no longer publishing a magazine - any magazine. Do you really think that he should have to give up his livelihood because he had a business fail? Are you and Pat suggesting that he can no longer write anything? The magazine folded - get over it.

Moderators - why is it OK for Pat to resurrect a closed thread here? Don't you have some rules against that?

I didn't intend to suggest anything.

The way it is right now there are two positions stated with equal conviction. Escalating things with higher and higher injections of assertiveness will not resolve this. So either it gets left alone as an unfortunate disagreement with readers free to do independent research on the matter, or it gets further debated, escalated and consequently removed/locked.

The key is in your own statement, knowing when to let go and let it work itself out.

[troj]

We're not going to reinvent an already closed thread under a new title.

Closed. Done. Over. Move along.

-Kevin