Level 1

I would like to share my recent Level 1 attempts with you all. I finally got off my butt and decided to attempt my level 1 with my 3" Sandhawk. I was using an H112J From Aerotech in our Dr. Rocket motor casing. I packed the chute, and associated protective equipment, double checked everything, and assembled my motor for my Cert team. Everything went good at this point. I took it to the pad, and installed the ignitor. (I buy my ignitors from the guys at Science Education Center in Wichita. ) Time came to light it up......and poof. burned ignitor. No sweat, grabbed another and got ready to go again. This time after a second or so it lifted off of the pad and headed straight up, Beautiful flight so far, then apogee, ....................then..............no......................still waiting ...............oh were on our way back down, going really fast now, 100' off the ground and pop, the ejection charge does it's thing. It also put 2 zippers in the airframe destroying it. From launch to agogee was roughly 8 seconds.,ejection should have been about 8 seconds as well, however at about 15 seconds it decided to do it's thing. This was the 3rd Aerotech delay problem that I had that weekend. The other 2 were on G64 reloads. All of them were way longer than advertised!

So after destroying 1 rocket, I vowed to not let this minor setback stop me. I whipped out my 4" IRIS (Supposed to be for my Level 2 Cert) and ran back over to the guys at Science Education Center. I picked up a 3 Grain Pro 38 and an I212SS(smoky sam). This time we were going to get it right, I could feel it. After packing the chute and assembling the motor(hehe), we were off to the RSO. All was checked out we had it on the pad in a matter of minutes,Ignitor hooked up and time to go. This time the Cesaroni brought my creation to life and in a huge cloud of black smoke lifted off the pad. After a beautiful flight the ejection charge was right on cue. Great deployment of the chute and a nice soft touchdown in the plowed dirt of the Kansas Prarie. Well I thought, I finally got that done! Now it's time to prepare for my Level 2 this Fall. All I can say is that it's a great feeling.

Originally posted by sixx
I finally got that done! Now it's time to prepare for my Level 2 this Fall. All I can say is that it's a great feeling.

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Congrats on L1......I have to agree it is a great feeling. I used a Pro38, H153 for my L1. I will be trying to get L2 labor day weekend with a Pro38 J285..........

I've already got my J285 for my Level 2 attempt in November. You can't beat a Pro38 motor at this popint. Given all of the problems that I have had with Aerotech lately, I will probably stick with Cesaroni. Need to put my Dr. Rocket Hardware up on the Yard sale forum I suppose. Oneof my buddies Certified Level 2 at LDRS right before my Level 1. He used the J285 also and it performed great.

Good luck !

BIG congrats to you on tour Level 1 Cert!!! There is nothing like the feeling of your first cert... a memory you will never forget. Sorry to hear about the first attempt...I too also had some delay problems recently, but have not seen them since. I am a big fan of Cesaroni and my only wish is that they would come out with a white lightning type load.

Carl

Sixx,

Getting your level 1 at Argonia is like going to Rocket Heaven and back. Congrats! The range is just in awesome shape right now, with few crops on the adjacent fields.

Are you coming to AIRFest 9 to pound out that level 2? That IRIS should be mighty pretty on that J285.

There's a few Argonia regulars on this forum and at least 2 KloudBusters, so dadgumit, look up myself and/or Swimmer before that level 2 cert flight so we can brag on ya. Might even get you on the video if I get enough warning.

--Lance.

Thanks, It's a deal! The only place we fly is in Argonia. You couldn't ask for much better around these parts. It's still an 8 hour drive for us,(round trip) but it's worth it!

We are planning on coming down for Distant Thunder in November for our next launch. I hope to achieve Level 2 status at that time. I still need another NAR level 2 for my cert team though. I just haven't hit anyone up yet.

Great to hear from you, and hope to see you in November.

Sixx,
congrats on the L1 cert!

I'm glad to see that the persistance paid off!


Annother Pro38 comes to the rescue ( once again !)

Congrats man!. I am sorry about your wrecked rocket. I have never had any problems with Aerotech but alot of people have. They like giving bonus Delays.

Anyway I am interested in taking that hardware off your hands ...what ya got?

I sent an email to you . Let me know if you don't get it.

I launched my Commado Cody rocket at NARAM with an Aerotech D21-4.

A 4 second delay would have been perfect!

Unfortunately Aerotech decided I needed an 8 sec delay!

Way too much.

Results: Chute opened about 6 feet from the ground for one very very stripped mylar parachute!

The rocket was OK.

sandman

I'm glad that I'm not the only one who has noticed big differences in the advertised delay time and the actual delay time with Aerotech's stuff. The single use G's have been pretty acurate for me but the RMS reloads are an entirely different story.

hmmmm.... interesting.

I've been flying Aerotech RMS now for three years. In that timeframe, I've burned over 100 reloads. I've used the following RMS hardware: 18mm, 24mm (both RC and regular versions), 32mm, 29/40-120, 29/60, 29/180, 29/240, 38/240, 38/360.

I have never had *any* problems with delays being either too short or too long.

Let me throw out a couple of ideas.

If you don't get your igniter *ALL* the way to the top of the grain, (maybe you get it close, but not quite to the top), you might create a situation where the delay grain gets a late start on its burn. In that scenario, it would appear that the delay grain gives you the above mentioned "bonus time." For this to be the case, your bonus would probably only seem a second or two longer than ordinary, because the igniter would have to be very close to the top or the motor wouldn't work properly in the first place. If you get the igniter very far down the grain, and the grain starts too near the bottom, the whole grain doesn't ignite, and you get what is known as a "chuff." Usually, the rocket doesn't even leave the pad. Or if it does, it doesn't go far. Since in the cases referenced above the rocket launched under what appeared to be full power, I don't think this is the problem. But, this scenario can cause some "bonus time" if it does happen.

What I think is more likely happening is that you people that are having this problem are getting some lubricant on the face of the delay grain that faces the propellant cores. Lubricant is a serious ignition inhibitor. What can happen is that it takes almost all of the burn of the propellant to even begin to get the delay grain burning. And, even then, if there is too much lubricant present, the delay grain can burn slower than normal. Thus, you can get significant "bonus time."

Again, I'm not saying that there couldn't have been a bona fide problem with the delay grain.... but I have to at least raise the question that there may be other possibilities for the problem described.

Like I said, I've *never* had this problem. And I've burned reloads that were fresh from the factory, and I've burned reloads that I know were at least 5 years old (a few were probably older than that). However, when I assemble a reload I am incredibly particular and extremely careful about making sure that *every step* is done to perfection.

Just some food for thought.

(And now, with my two kinds of luck [none and bad] I've probably jinxed myself and when I go to the Whitakers launch this weekend I'll have every RMS problem that's known to man plus a few new ones)

That's good info, I was taught on my first reload assembly that Lube is not you friend. I am as careful as anyone could be and make triple sure not to get too much on the o rings or any lube on anything that it shouldn't be on. I'm not saying that it couldn't have happened but I'm 99.99% sure that this wasn't the case on these flights. I don't suppose I will ever truly know what caused these problems, but my remedy at this point is to move on the the Pro38 and Pro54 motors. I would rather spend my time building and tweaking the rocket rather than worrying about whether this motor is going to fail too or not. Sure that's always in the back of your mind but it's getting rediculous.

I got in to high power rocketry right about the time Aerotech was having all of it's problems so the only real choice I had was the Cesaroni ProX motors. They are so simple to prep it is almost ridiculous. And I have never had a failure of any kind (knock on wood).

This has been an interesting discussion as I'm planning my L1 project now. So many choices!

I really like Aerotech products, but have never used their RMS stuff. While I want the challenge of building one of their motors, I want to keep my L1 attempt as simple as possible. Which means Pro38. But a lot of people have successfully flown AT motors for years...what's a guy to do?

Been comparing prices at the 54mm level and it looks like ProX gets more competitive in the larger sizes. If it's going to be that close in price and keep it simpler, there's another check in their favor. I guess the advantage with AT is you have a lot more choice of propellant.

Chilly,

If you're looking at learning the AT RMS stuff, get the 29mm 40-120 case and fly some mid-power loads. They're awesome, and give you a good idea what to expect with the HPR stuff.

Loopy

Originally posted by Loopy
Chilly,

If you're looking at learning the AT RMS stuff, get the 29mm 40-120 case and fly some mid-power loads. They're awesome, and give you a good idea what to expect with the HPR stuff.

Loopy

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That is a great idea! I have used both the 24mm and 29mm Aerotech reloads and it just further demonstrates how simple/foolproof the Cesaroni ProX series of motors are.

You might also think about "renting" or "borrowing" the motor case from someone and just purchase the reload. That will give you an even better idea before you make the investment.

Just a thought...

I agree, start out with some 29mm Aerotech RMS stuff and get comfortable with it before you move on to the 38mm etc.I felt it was easiest for us that way. I flew a ton of G64s in my 29mm RMS hardware. Great little motor. Never had a problem until LDRS this year with my 29mm reloads.I really like that particular reload for my 2" IRIS.

A buddy of mine got his Level 1 on an Aerotech RMS reload, as have many , many others. Out of frustration I got tired of the problems and a quick fix was to grab a 3 grain Pro 38. This was the best choice for my frame of mind and particular situation. We did have a failure on a Pro38 once, (shredded a 3" Sandhawk) but the ratio of problems for us with Aerotech versus Pro38 head us towards Cesaroni.

Which ever route you take , I wish you the best of luck. It will all work out in the end. And don't forget to let us know how things go.

I will let you all know what combination I use. There's been a recent development, as a matter of fact...

Just spoke to Ross and he's holding his last Vaughn Brothers Javelin for me. VB's going out of business kinda bumped it to the top of my "must have" list. I'll be heading to Magnum next week to pick it up along with a LOC Weasel (which would be a righteous L1 except for the "must recover it" part - I have a feeling we'd never see it again on an H180).

Anyway I hadn't planned on the Javelin for my L1 project but events may just be leading me there! I was roc-simming it last night and it looks like a really good hpr kit for cheap. Told the wife to write down "29/180-360" and Ross' number if she needs any ideas for Christmas.

Ain't I a stinker?




P.S. I am going to pick up a 29/40-120 set to practice on soon as most of my single-use motors are gone.

P.P.S. I will also post photos as soon as I get my latest roll developed and scanned. Been saving lots of rocket photos for you guys and will document the Javelin build as best I can. May also ask Extreme Rocketry if they'd be interesting in letting me write about an "average Joe's" journey to L1 given the current environment. What do ya'll think?