Leup

I agree with the NAR critique of the new laws affecting model rocketry. However, as a professor of political science, I also know how long it can take to make modify legislation. Therefore, I decided to apply for a LEUP.

Overall, I found the process painless other than the $100 fee. The forms can be downloaded from the BAFTE web site but you have to ask for the fingerprint card to be sent to you. They mailed it right out and I received it in a few days. My local police station was rather amused about having to fingerprint me for a model rocket application but they did so willingly and in about 10 minutes.

A few weeks after I sent the application in, I was contacted by the BATFE inspector. She agreed to stop by my office at a time that was convenient to me. She knew a great deal about model rocketry and had launched a few low-power rockets herself. I did not debate the law with her (that is above her pay grade) but she was certainly accomodating. We had about a 45 minute discussion that covered all aspects of current law.

Shortly thereafter, the application came to my house. They even sent it FEDEX, presumably to beat the 5-24 deadline.

Am I happy that a BATFE inspector will visit my house in the next three years? Of course not. However, on balance, I feel that I am better off with the LEUP.

Jherbst,
Thanks for the report, this is good information and I'm glad it went well for you.

It makes me sick that my tax money paid for that person and all those forms, the whole idea that it relates to model rockets just makes me sick, sick I tell you, just sick. It still sucks.

Maybe if I used a flame retarder I could sneak out in the dark and launch, then make haste for home, hurry back to bed and wait for the knock on my door.

Sounds like a european movie doesn't it.

The thing that makes it so frustrating is that the $200 makes it very cost prohibitive for a newbie like me, and even worse - I finished my L1 bird about three weeks ago, and now I don't know if I'll ever be able to launch it.

Loopy

Originally posted by airforce

Maybe if I used a flame retarder I could sneak out in the dark and launch, then make haste for home, hurry back to bed and wait for the knock on my door.

Sounds like a european movie doesn't it. [/B]

Click to expand...

No Airforce:
Then you'd be violating FAA Regs. FAR 101.1 No MR lauches between sunset and sunraise without a full FAA waiver

Thanks Micro, I almost had the plan complete. You don't happen to work for a government agency do ya????

Heck NO! I just do a lot of night launches and happened to know the Reg. Don't like to Tick off our freinds in the FAA We don't need any more alphabet agencies on our case

Am I missing something...? The LEUP has been the smallest of problems to me.

Are we not still required to store high power loads in a an "approved" explosives magazine.

There lies the cost. Also the impossibility for me as these magazines have to be a minumum of 75 ft from any occuppied structure, i'd have to move, and then spend big bucks and alot of time constructing and approved explosives magazine.

Now to move the loads from the approved magazine to a launch site again required more large hoops to jump through.

Jason

"I agree with the NAR critique of the new laws affecting model rocketry. However, as a professor of political science, I also know how long it can take to make modify legislation. Therefore, I decided to apply for a LEUP.

"Am I happy that a BATF inspector will visit my house in the next three years? Of course not. However, on balance, I feel that I am better off with the LEUP."

Well done and well put, Mr. Herbst.

No one likes being forced to jump through hoops in order to enjoy a privilege or privileges. And certainly, no one likes to even think the things they openly declare in pursuit of mere hobbies may be a standing invitation to the possibilities of confrontational or adversarial scrutiny from governmental agencies. But that's just the way things happen to be at this time.

In analogy: Since the BATF controls and manages fuel for the amatuer rocket game, we hobbyists have to pay if we want to play.

My LEUP was granted in 1998, when the cost was $20.00 and there were at least ten times as many high-power flyers in the state as BATF field agents. And I do believe that influx was the primary reason for increasing the fee because requirements for application and maintaining the permit were no different then than they are today. Then there was the lawsuit brought against the BATF by TRA and NAR; of which I'd rather not express personal opinion lending favor to either side's argument, but I will say I thought everything was going just fine until the fecal storm started.

Speaking of inspection from personal experience first and other LEUP holder's I know second, it's only as difficult or easy as the person being inspected makes it. Consistently accurate records that are detailed, neatly kept and well organized beyond basic requirement have gone a long way toward the development of favorable relations between the BATF and me. Especially, and more importantly, at the local level where I try to make the inspecting agents task easier when he or she may only have an hour to investigate what I've been doing for a year or two. Nor has the entire experience been nearly so 'Orwellian' as is portrayed by the 'nattering nay bobs' who just talk for the sake of talking or those who reject the accoutrements of responsibility and accountability all so dearly love to say it is.

But hey!
Those who can and want to do, actually "Do". Just like you Mr. Herbst. While those who can't, just talk and often speak ill of things that must be earned.

The goal you have reached in being granted a LEUP is a whole lot like being handed a diploma on graduation/commencement day because you and few others have one. I mean, it surely ain't worth the paper it's written on but at least you've got one, a whole bunch of other people don't, and knowing nay Sayers are quietly eating their little ol' hearts out is worth much, much more.

Please rest assured that as soon as I send this message I will be standing on the desk in my office waiving a copy of my own LEUP to recognize and honor what you have done.

With all sincerity, I still don't get it.

What good is the LEUP if you don't have an explosives magazine to store the reloads in?

Getting the LEUP is no problem for me, but I live in a residential neighborhood and cannot have an explosives magazine per residential zoning here.

So the LEUP would do what for me??

Do I understand stuff correctly that I would be able to buy and fly on the launch site, but not transport home.

As I launch in several different states, would the LEUP transfer accross state lines for purchasing?

Jason

Well what i've just been informed on ROL is that to buy you must have contingent storage somewhere, in case the reload is not used.

So I have to have an explosives magazine or access to one to purchase rocket motors.

I guess in other words, if I'm going to follow the new rules, I can't fly high power.

Jason

You cannot get a LEUP without a storage magazine of your own or demonstrable access to one. This is the hangup for me as well, although for me, it's that I have noplace to put one that's not within 75 feet of a dwelling.

Were you to get one, then yes. It would apply to interstate commerce, provided you don't go with the limited use permit. Not that the limited use permit does not absolve you of needing storage.

Oops. Just saw you answered your own question.

That's what I thought Kermie, same situation here to correctly comply I just don't have access to an "approved" explosives magazine.

If i could get that figured out the next would be an approved form of transportation.

Hopin to wait it all out.

Jason

I am in agreement that the LEUP implies storage which you must be able to demonstrate that you meet the requirements - I do not nor can I for similar reasons. The LUP is of little value since I can count on one hand (and not use all my fingers) the number of in-state launches I attend where there is a licensed vendor selling motors.

I encourage everyone to write your Senators, the House of Representatives and the ATFE as outlined by John Wickam of the ARSA:

https://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html

Keeping in mind that APCP is NOT an explosive and that it is just short of farcical to regulate same, I have applied for a LEUP as I wish to be a participant in my favorite hobby.

I am a Canadian resident and a dual citizen (both US and Canada - long story - born in NY to American father/Canadian mother) - so storage is a challenge for me.

Having said that, I was advised by a BATFE agent to write to the director and request "relief from disability", which I did about ten days ago. A week later I received a very friendly phone call from an agent from the director's office. I was told how to obtain and complete the forms properly. I was assured that non-residents could and would receive LEUPs for hobby rocketry as long as they were resposible adults and resident in a country with diplomatic relations with the USA (for background check). I asked about storage and was advised that all I needed to do to expedite the process was to have AT LEAST ONE letter from a LEUP holder with storage stating that they would accept for storage, from me, any motors that I purchased and could not fly. Seems simple enough.

My next step, after receiving the LEUP, will be to address the storage and transportation issue. I don't expect to transport HUGE motors, but would like to be able to move around with, say, up to J's or perhaps even K's in tow. I

As far as storage in Canada is concerned, it seems to me that we do not at present have inspections, although storage requirements are set out by the authorities. It also seems to me that this makes some sense, as it is difficult to inspect for all manners of dangerous materials in a home. For example, it is perfectly legal to store gasoline in one's bedroom in tanker load quantities (same stateside?) - as long as the gasoline is in an approved container. There is nothing to prevent one from storing it in the bathtub, truth be known, and the same probably holds true of APCP. The government needs to, in my humble opinion, regulate minimally and spend more energy and money on education, keeping in mind that the "bad guys" don't apply for LEUPS or any other type of license for that matter.

Sorry, didn't mean to get up on the soapbox. The BATFE effort is certainly well intentioned, but as with many government efforts, it is ill-conceived. BATFE agents are simply mandated with enforcing givernment regulations.... if you deal with them as human beings you will likely be treated the same way. And they can have a bad day, same as you and I. And most importantly, remember that THEY hold ALL of the cards. Sorta like the IRS. Be a bad-***, "I'm gonna be your worst nightmare", I know the regulations better than you, don't mess with me, kinda guy/gal, and you are going to find yourself at the short end of the stick. On the other hand, be amiable, offer them a cold drink on a hot day, thanks for your assistance - it is appreciated - kinda guy/gal and you just might find the experience somewhat interesting and pleasant. (Excluding the $100 part).

Heck, I might even start experimenting with fireworks once I have my LEUP. Won't THAT make the neighbors happy!

MDL

I hate to part with the $$ but I'll probably jump on the LEUP bandwagon in the next year or so...the more I fly mid-power, the more I want to fly high-power! If that means a permit with storage, then so be it. Unless "easy access" is codified into law with S724, it's LEUP time.

As far as inspections go, if I've learned anything in the commercial aviation biz, it's "play the game" at inspection time. That means make sure your paperwork's VERY thorough and well-organized. Don't give them a reason to feel the need to start digging for anything, and 90% of the time you'll do just fine. Hopefully it'll be the same way with the ATF.

As much as this situation absolutely sucks, we need to remember what the national background is. We are at war with an ideology that earnestly desires either our subjugation or outright destruction. And we live in an age where it's not too far a stretch for them to get their hands on the kinds of weapons to actually make their sick fantasies happen.

It doesn't make our current situation right, but it's the kind of over-reaching BS that happens in a war. Politicians will always take advantage of societal fears to push their agendas.

This July 4th, just thank the Lord that we live in a country where we actually have a realistic chance to to defeat misguided legislation. There are a lot of "enlightened" countries across the pond where we wouldn't have a chance given the same situation, much less the unenlightened ones.