Permit, or No Permit; That is the Question

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tquigg

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Hi All:

As one of the latest "newbies" to this discussion forum, I'm probably asking a question that has already been hashed here before, so please treat me gently...

Can I get an idea from you folks how many of you plan to go ahead and get an LEUP or LUP, and how many plan to hold off and wait and see what the NAR/TRA suit and/or John Wickman's efforts produce?

I like HPR as much as anyone else, but I can also live for awhile flying G's and clusters if I have to. I had an LEUP in the past, but like a fool I let it expire because I didn't see a need for it after I got out of the firearm's dealer's business. Who'd have known that I would be getting into a hobby that would need such a permit?

My club is continuing with its efforts to provide a club storage magazine for those members who cannot provide a means of storage for themselves due to local regulations. The majority of our group is planning on getting the permits before the May deadline, but a few of us (I included) are still undecided on what to do...get the permit, or wait and see how all of this turns out.

Just trying to get a concensus idea on what "everyone else" is doing....

Thanks in advance...
 
I'm waiting, personally. I'm just on a limited budget and after my trip to Whitakers to meet everyone, I just don't think buying a magazine and getting the LEUP are in the financial picture this year. If push comes to shove, I'll try my hand at a little competition flying. If there's no relief by next year from the regs, I'll look at getting the LEUP then.

Jon
 
I basically have the same plan as Kermie. Right now, I am planning on flying hybrids and not getting a permit. It's just a hobby, so I see no need to waive my constitutional rights and shell out money to a government organization to fly. Oh, and if it gets to the point of insanity? I can always drop back into model rockets. I'm finding out that those are just as fun as 5" fiberglass M2500T powered beasts.

My 2 cents.
 
I will fork over the $100 and get the Low Explosives Users Permit (LEUP) from the BATFE. Compared to the other costs of High Power Rocketry (kits, reloads, electronics, etc.), it isn't too much of a burden. It costs far more to set up a Type 4 Explosive Magazine for Low Explosive STORAGE, however. The permit is just part of the total package.

I know one can have plenty of fun with rocket motors having < 62.5 grams of propellant. Whenever Aerotech finally gets their factory back in gear, they're going to be cranking out G80s FIRST. I think they recognize that HPR reload purchases are going to fall off in 3 months, and that the "Mid Power" motors are going to be in higher, long-term demand.

However, I believe that most of the High Power Rocketeers in the closest rocketry club are not going to obtain an LEUP. Too bad. For the amount of effort (and money) it takes to complete a nice rocket kit, one can fill out the 7-page form and mail in $100. Those clubs that are pursuing a "club magazine" concept are WAY AHEAD of my closest rocketry club. The Type 4 Explosive Magazine I'm building (24" dia., 30" high, 7.8 cubic feet) is going to be mostly empty. I cannot possibly fill it up with up to 50 lbs of APCP rocket motors by myself. Spread the cost of making ONE Type 3 or Type 4 Explosive Magazine among the club members, and it won't be too bad.
 
I rent in a multi-family townhouse. I don't have the option of building my own Type-4 case. Since the nearest rocketry club is about 2 hours away, I don't have the luxury of stopping by a possible club case on my way to the launch. That's not to mention the Type-3 day case which I don't have either that I'd need to take the motors from the club case to the launch. I'll fly what I can before May 23rd and hope the chips fall in our favor before next season. If that doesn't happen, I'll look into taking the money I would have spent on my next big project and putting it into meeting the requirements for the LEUP.
 
I'm in wait mode also. I was about to start my L1 project when the LEUP thing became an issue. As much as I'm looking forward to building HPR, I want to be able to fly them too. There's plenty of rocketry other than HPR, while the dust settles.
 
I'd been planning on building my L1 project this winter but am waiting to see what happens. $100 is just too much, especially since it will be a recurring expense - not to mention the fingerprinting that goes along with it. All told, that's about $150 which will buy a couple of good MPR kits and several motors. And TRA dues aren't getting any cheaper either.

Wish my budget wasn't limited but that's life. One day my kids will be grown up and I can spend outrageous $$ on this. Until then I have to make the best use of my resources, and I want to fly as much as possible.
 
My club is presently going "parallel path" to handle the situation.

First most of the members got together and decided to purchse a full set of Doug Pratt's NOX equipment along with Marty Dorociak's heavy duty launch equipment (www.pratthobbies.com and www.x-rockets.com). That will allow us to switch to Hybrids, either Hypertek or one of the "floating piston" types.

If the BATFE really starts cracking down on the rocketry hobby, and several agents have mentioned that to members of our club, they may start arresting flyers for using black power deployment charges. For that eventuallity we're in the process of setting up a shared magazine on a rural farm located between 1/2 and 1 hours drive away from our homes. We'll be moving a 50# type 4 magazine there in the next week or so, it's snowing just a little too much at the moment, and once in place we'll apply for our LEUP's using it as our "conditional storage". As soon as the weather warms up we'll have a "magazine raising" and finish constructing a 1000# magazine on the same site.

Hopefully we'll be able to keep flying this year with the above precautions but we all hope that either the lawsuit or John Wickham's effort suceeds.


Ken
 
Thanks so very much to everyone for their input on this subject! I really find it interesting to read about everyone's approach to this subject. Many of my friends are going to relegate themselves to flying G and below after May until this thing shakes itself out. I'm still leaning towards getting the permit though. I can't stand to be away from my favorite motor (H128) for very long! Besides, I just got a heck of a deal on the 6-casing set of CTI Pro-38's and DAT tool...only $150.00. So.......

Again many thanks rocket folks. I'm an ROL convert...I think I've found my new home

Best Regards
 
i am going to be hybrid equipped by May so i'll still keep on flying highpower. I still am considering the permit, but first must figure out where I can store the motors.
 
Even tho I'm also applying for an LEUP, this whole conversation might be for not.

Hope you all have seen that UPS isn't shipping motors anymore and FEDX is about to do the same. Also, don't hold out for hybrids, I've heard from more that one source that the ATFE is probably going to attempt to regulate those as well.

Let's all hope all of this isn't true and that saner minds will prevail.

But there is no question, that a huge dark cloud is hanging over rocketry at the moment.

If UPS won't ship, you can't buy and dealers can't order (easily). AT coming back up on production is in one of the worst places. They'll have inventory running out their ears and no where for it to go, but not because of demand, because of prohibition! :(

Maybe we all should move to Cedar City, Ut :)

Alan - With a comment :(

https://www.space-rockets.com/arsanews.html - if you haven't read all the latest info
 
Just when ya think things can't get any worse for rocketry....:(
I don't want to jump the gun here but...I don't know if I should run out and buy all the motors I can get my hands on or what. :confused:
 
I haven't seen that about UPS. Could you link me to the info?
 
Never mind. Scratch that. Just saw it in The Coffee House...Move along people..nothing to see here. :)
 
Here's the story about United Parcel Service halting their shipping of rocket motors:
**************************
To All Interested Parties:

February 17, 2003 - The news that a major transportation carrier, United Parcel Service, has decided to discontinue shipment of solid rocket motors was anticipated and discussed at length last week with Congressional staff. This action will strengthen our hand in getting an emergency bill passed in the Congress to delay implementation of the Safe Explosives Act until a "technical corrections" bill can be passed. The emergency bill will push back the May deadline for permits and licenses. The ATFE with support from the Justice Department has been creating a situation of transportation chaos at American borders and now more recently within the United States. We expect more news on this development very soon.

More information can be found at our news web page:

https://www.space-rockets.com/arsanews.html

John Wickman
Amateur Rocketry Society of America
 
Yup, started the process back in November. Followed the bouncing ball and today, my LEUP with attached garage storage showed up!!!

Woo hoo, now if this dang SEA on the HSA doesn't screw it up :(

Alan
 
Congratulations on obtaining your Low Explosives User Permit (LEUP) with Storage. You're all "good to go" for the next 3 years. It appears that the process really does take 90 days. I sent my LEUP With Storage application into the BATFE on Tues., Feb 18th in order to beat the Feb 24th start of fingerprinting, photos, and background checks.

Even if John Wickman is successful in obtaining legislative relief from the Safe Explosives Act (SEA) and Homeland Security Act (HSA), you never know what the BATFE will propose over the next 3 years....
 
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