Cold smoke

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Rocketman248

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I've seen some people using smoke canisters for tracking. has anyone here ever used one? If so how does it work and where do you get them?
 
Yup, I've been around them a lot... they have made some of the projects that I've seen go up real easy to spot at apogee. I encountered them through the Gates Brothers when I was first helping them prep Aramis II in Texas. They used skydiving cold smoke canisters, wrapped in yellow paper, about 2" diameter and 4" long (ish). I don't remember where they got them from, Erik was the one who got them (he's a BASE jumper too).

Usage was to either bolt them to a bulkhead and hold them on with hose clamps, or duct tape them to the shock cord. Then we tied in a quick-link about 2 feet up the cord, and attached it to the pull ring on the canister. At apogee, the shock cord stretches, pulls out the pin, and voila-- smoking rocket.
 
This sounds like a great idea, but I checked a bunch of online skydiving shops and couldn't find anything related to cold smoke canisters. Anyone have an idea where they can be purchased?
 
OK, well I just talked with Erik (or his daughter at least ;)) and learned that they get the cold smoke from Paragear-- https://www.para-gear.com. Click on search, and then type "L1255" or "Smoke" in the box and you'll get the canisters... kinda pricey, but they work really well. Oh, and avoid the colored smoke-- it is GREASY and MESSY and GROSS. I saw some of the recovery rigging with the residue left on it from one of these colored canisters-- it did NOT come off. The white smoke is much more benign (does not stain anything).
 
Thanks! Took a while as the link that was on there didn't come up for me. Here's one that worked for me if anyone else is looking.

ParaGear

16 bucks a pop..hmm...for a cert flight, maybe...
 
It IS cheaper than a RocketHunter though! I fired off an email to the owner of our local skydiving place. He's a member of the Liberty Parachute Skydiving Team, a pretty big-time demonstration group. They use the stuff all the time and he may have a more economical supplier.
 
That might work pretty cool for my Nike Smoke.

Mounted into the nose cone (It's hollowed out) with the smoke coming out the four scale outlet holes.

I'm not to thrilled about the $16...I'ts only money.

sandman
 
RocketHunters work REAL good (pardon the grammar). I've had rockets utterly disappear in the sky at launch and be able to tell not only where the rocket is, but whether the chute has deployed and how fast its coming down with one of these suckers. We also had a rocketeer have his rocket stolen at a recent launch, and he tracked it to the guy's house who stole it! Now if that isn't performance, then I don't know what is...


...knowing the manufacturer has nothing to do with my endorsement ;)...
 
Thanks for the info guys! I took a look at the smoke canisters and there was only one problem. The shipping. $25.00 for shipping and it can only be shipped to commercial addresses. Although... I just remembered that there is a skydiving school about five miles down the road from me. I should give them a call.
 
I sent off an e-mail to para-gear and found out that the "cold smoke canisters" are not really cold. They do actually have a substance that burns and the end can get pretty hot...maybe even burn through a shockcord.

So, I guess the question still remains...where can you get "cold" smoke canisters???

David

BTW- The canisters from Para-Gear are 2.5"x5" in size.
 
Try www.superiorsignal.com

I was looking into this about a year ago and they were willing to do up an order with "squib" starters as they call them. Electric matches instead of pull rings. Same price and it seems to me it was in the order of about $12 each. Not something to use every day, but for small rockets flying to great altitude it is cheap insurance. For cert3 flights it is definitely a great idea.
Murray
 
I looked into this type of tracing method a year or so ago and thought it would not only be useful, but it would just be cool to see a rocket smoking as it came down - NOT from a CATO. But really decided against it from a fire safety perspective. Most places I launch have tons-o-grass and laying the thing outside the rocket with extreme heat involved didn't sound like a good combo - put it inside the rocket and you probably have a similar concern. Of course, there may be truly "cold" burners out there that would work to alleviate this concern. If there is, I'm all ears.

Shane
 
An idea I'm pursuing is to build a "can within a can" out of a chunk of coupler. Baffle the two cans by drilling small holes. Run allthread through it like an alt bay and then place your smoke charge in the inner can. One chunk of cord between each end and the other components and load it between your e charge and chute. Acts like a piston, gets the smoke out near the middle of the cord, prevents direct contact w/ the "hot stuff". Flights that require this kind of thing generally stay in the air from apogee to ground longer than 30 sec (and you can always extend the time w/ a huge chute :p ) so having actively burning stuff hit the ground should be a minimal concern...

Let me know when you get it built.... :)

FWIW,
-bill
 
Yes and no on the 30 second thing. Depending on the altitude and whether or not you're using DD, it doesn't take long to get the bird down. Here are the one's I'm familiar with:

https://www.evhill.com/products/colored_smoke.htm

The pull-tab candles have a burn time of 60 seconds and I guess that's when I stopped considering them. Of course, I didn't see a white smoker in the bunch and the colored stuff seems to stick around longer that I would care to deal with (see earlier post from 'daveyfire'. A bit pricey too.

Shane
 
Yup. that's the same company I referenced above. 30 sec. white smokes are HERE .

Depend on your altitude of course, but where we fly, (16K waiver)
30 seconds isn't a very long flight (apogee to ground), even w/ DD.The view is good enough that most stuff going to < ~3-4K isn't too bad to spot....

FWIW,
-bill
 
And correct you are. When I originally considered the option I have to be honest and say that I was going 80% for effect and 20% for sight purposes. I sent one up this fall 4"x9.5' long and lost it about 5600 or so. But you're right, about seeing them in the average instance where most altitudes are lower and within an eyesight range. I like to match up my parachutes to the color scheme and was going with the colored stuff (yep, sew my own - sometimes I question my sanity). I don't guess I have much interest in the white at all. Most of time you have 25 or so eyes looking for it anyway.

Shane
 
Hi,
For my high altitude flight to 9K on a K550 I plan to use either one of the HVT color candles (red) from E V Hill or one of their 2-3 minute white smoke grenades.

After talking with the guy from EV Hill, I know that the grenades do get hot. So, I guess there is that saftey concern. But the point of the smoke for me is to track while driving after it. Hopefully, it is down for no more than 30 sec. before I get there. There is only a real concern if I use the 2-3 min ones because the 60 sec. ones will burn out while still under drouge.

I do agree that $30 is a little much for a smoke canister but I am more than willing to pay that much for an insurance pollicy on a $350 rocket, $100 altimeter and $80 casing.

I'll let you know how it goes later on this summer if your still interested.

David
 
I'm very interested in the colored "mess" and how that works out and how you plan on protecting the cords, rocket, etc from potential burns.

Shane
 
I'm very interested in the colored "mess" and how that works out and how you plan on protecting the cords, rocket, etc from potential burns.

Shane
 
Shane,
Personally, I'm not concerned about ruining the finish. Chances are that the paint scheme is not going to remain nice-looking for awhile on this rocket anyway, since I plan on mach flights and hard landings.

As far as burns go, I am probably going to use all kevlar for the drogue shock cord so burning through is not too much of a concern. Also, I am rigging it so that the smoke canister will hopefully be the uppermost part of the rocket during descent under drogue. I am also not worried about burning the rocket because it has a layer of kevlar laminated over it, then a layer or two of glass, then heat resistant primer and autobody paint that can take 200 degree temperatures pretty well.

David
 
Originally posted by MaverickLV
Hi,
For my high altitude flight to 9K on a K550 I plan to use either one of the HVT color candles (red) from E V Hill or one of their 2-3 minute white smoke grenades.

After talking with the guy from EV Hill, I know that the grenades do get hot. So, I guess there is that saftey concern. But the point of the smoke for me is to track while driving after it. Hopefully, it is down for no more than 30 sec. before I get there. There is only a real concern if I use the 2-3 min ones because the 60 sec. ones will burn out while still under drouge.

I do agree that $30 is a little much for a smoke canister but I am more than willing to pay that much for an insurance pollicy on a $350 rocket, $100 altimeter and $80 casing.

I'll let you know how it goes later on this summer if your still interested.

David

Seems to me that I noted that their candles are not $30 each, but rather $30 per DOZEN - The next challenge is getting it actually lit up. Go white... I hear the color smoke jobs are greasy and messy.

Personally, I think 30 seconds is long enough to get an eyeball on anything under 10K feet. Sixty seconds max.

Murray
 
Just a little update about some smoke information I have found since the idea has been refreshed with all the fireworks I have seen lately.

First, I actually got EV Hill (the tracking smoke company) to sponsor my high altitude rocket...really cool:)

Second, the building of the rocket is done and it is fully laminated in kevlar to be burn resistant. Also, the entire 20' drogue shock cord is tubular kevlar.

Third, I am in the process of ground testing a couple of the smoke canisters to see their effects. So far I have just tested one of the 2-3 minute white smoke grenades (110,000 cubic feet of smoke). I can tell you for sure that you do not want to use one of these in a rocket. The ENTIRE GRENADE INCLUDING THE CONTAINER BURNS! In a coupler or on a shockcord this would not be a good idea. From my understanding, all of the other white smoke candles and grenades burn this way.

However, the HVT pull tab ones (colored) do not burn their outer case according to EV Hill.

Tomorrow I am doing a test of one of the red HVT 60-sec grenades with the canister on my shock cord to see the effects of the burn. I will let you all know how it goes. If all works as planned, I hope to fly one of the red HVT canisters in the rocket next weekend.

David
 
WOW:D
The ground test of the 60-sec HVT red grenade was awesome!

I attached it to the shockcord with two wraps of duct tape and also wrapped about a foot of the shockcord in duct tape to help resist burns and the colored mess I have heard about. The pull pin was attached to the fin can and I packed up the whole drogue section as if I were going to fly it. Then I went out in the yard and my mom and I walked in opposite directions until the pin was pulled and the shockcord was taught.

The grenade only took about 3-5 seconds to come up to full pressure and when it did it was a sight to see. 60,000 cubic feet of red smoke going down the street:rolleyes: It is obvious to me that you would easily see this at 10K or 20K or maybe higher.

The burn lasted 62 seconds after which I layed the whole assembly on the ground (dry short grass). Then I took a look at the grenade and picked it up...yes I picked it up about 10-20 seconds after firing and it was just warm...NOT hot...excellent I thought, excellent!

About 2 minutes later it started getting hot and by about five minutes later it was cooking pretty good. Still not hot enough to burn you if you touched it for a few seconds, but it wasn't just warm anymore.

A few minutes later I cut off the canister and from my inspection of the cord so far, there is no damage. The only slight charring occured on the duct tape on the shock cord that was only about an inch from the point of smoke emmission. There was some red greasy stuff on the shockcord but that stopped once it got about 6 inches to a foot from the grenade. The greasy stuff easily came off with a wipe. As I stated before though, there was no damage to the shockcord or rocket.

After this wonderfully successful test I am hoping to fly one of these this weekend. I am being careful though. The motor I am using puts it up high enough that I know it will be under drogue for more than 60 seconds. Also, I will not fly it if the grass/hay is very dry because if I could not get to it in about 4 minutes then I suppose there may be a small fire hazard. So far I highly recommend this product...I will let you know how it goes.

David
 
that sounds awsome!!!! I may need to get some if I do a two stage project.

I would probably use kevlar cord so I wouldnt need to worry about any burning.

I have one question though. Why does the canister get hot after it is done burning?
 
I think it gets hot after it is donw burning because the canister is insulated enough that that it takes a couple of minutes for the heat inside to pass to the outside of the container. Just my thoughts though.

David
 
how about the smoke emmiters from regin.?

www.regin.com

they have some pretty big ones in lots of colors

they do not contaian any oil or wax..and are environmentaly safe

they also sell midpower size stuff on

www. rcsmoke.com
 
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