Lvl 2 ?????

Well fellas its time to think about Lvl 2. Should I try hybrids, what with the passing of the Homeland Security Act, or stick with AP?
As I write, Im sitting on two unbuilt PML kits that would work for Lvl 2. First is my Eclipse, second is my D- Region Tomahawk. Maybe a scratch build, I was thinking of an upscale Big Bertha using 3" to 4" tubing with a 38mm motor mount? Maybe you gents have some suggestions you could throw my way. Phil suggested another AMRAAM in the 4 configuration. This would make me buy another kit. Gee twist my arm!
If I go with the Eclipse, I will have to deal with electronics and duel deployment, Im not against this idea, but many have told me to keep it simple. Leave the bells and whistles for another day.
They say when you Cert go with a straight forwad design. This brings in my Tomahawk, could go with a J350. It would get way the hell up there, but we do have very large fields so not much worry in this aspect of recovery( I will stay away from any area with lakes though!) This brings us to a scratch project. What appeals to me here is that I could go with a hybrid or AP. The Eclipse does'nt have much room to install a hybrid. I know of one guy who tried this but have'nt got any feedback from him. Not sure about the Tomahawk, it does have a 21' payload section so perhaps this kit could be bashed into a hybrid?
Im in no rush here. Ive got a lot of small projects to work on as well. Just ordered two kits from Jim over @ Fliskits and I also ordered the 1:14 Aries "Fat Albert" from the boys over @ True Modeler. Christmas gifts from the wife, she let me order for myself.
So tell me what you guys think?

John

For your level 2 you are getting close to that dual-deployment line. For my level 2 I had the PML A4 ready with all the electronics:

https://www.cybergatetech.com/phpgraphy/index.php?display=Rocketry/AMRAAM4/final5.jpg

But then, trying to impress Mark, I built an upscale of his BSD Diablo.

https://www.cybergatetech.com/phpgraphy/index.php?display=Rocketry/elDiablo/img_2237a.jpg

It was a 7" rocket heavy enough to take a J without dual deployment:

https://www.cybergatetech.com/phpgraphy/?display=Rocketry/launch 4-27-02/img_2443.jpg

So, anyway, I guess the moral to the story is that choosing to do electronics for your level 2 is not a bad choice. If you choose a rocket that a J is going to put over 2K then you should be fine with dual deployment. If not, build your rocket big and heavy for a low, majestic, loud, level 2.

Luck to ya....

Great pictures Phil! Your AMRAAM 4 looks really nice, also like the red nose and pin stripes on your elDiablo. No problems here catching nothing but smoke trails on that lift off shot good job. Sounds like you have had alot of practice though "LOL".
I visited Carls home page and looked through his succesful Lvl 3 flight with his mighty AIM-120, were you there @ Whitikers when he sent that monster up? Carls not joking when he says he is fond of that bird!
Carl, BIG TIME CONGRATS!!! on that Lvl 3 project. Very impressive. I bet those cows really freaked out.
I've read your remarks Phil and believe that going with the PML Eclipse will be a fun way to go. I tried to get the Co-Pilot Altimeter from Ross when I ordered my Aero Pack retainerer but he was out of stock. I will wait untill Ross gets them back in. At this point, Ross has my complete devotion. He is hands down one of the nicest people out there in this hobby.
Im not exactly sure when I will began. I started building my Dueces Wild last night, got the motor assembly together, the fins and tube cut out and sealed the balsa nose cone. Not HPR, but fun none the less!

For cert flights, I am a devotee of the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) principle because every time I have been lured away, I have been treated to an excellent unplanned learning opportunity ;-)

I view the certification procedures as a gateway to better, wider rocketry knowledge rather than an end in and of themselves. I got my Level 1 and Level 2 certs a month apart with the same rocket - a scratch built 500mm equilateral tetrahedron flying on Pro38 motors.

Dual deployment, radio locator beacons, hybrid plumbling (and also supersonic fin reinforcement, sanding spirals and long recovery treks) are now part of my future learning opportunities now that I have the certs in my pocket without an RSO peering over my shoulder ;-)

My current nterest is in tetrahedral airframes and experimental N2O hybrids. My Level 3 development project is called the Mother of all Tetrahedrons (MOAT) and fits into the Rocketry Forum's category of Large Dangerous Rockets.

It is a 850mm equilateral tet that will used twin wall 10mm polycarbonate for the airframe. The aft bulkhead is being constructed from aluminium/nomex honeycomb laminated with CF and some other goodies.

MOAT carries 9 liters of tankage in three bottles feeding into a Hypertek M motor grain and injector bell. Potentially, one tank could be used to hold alcohol in future propulsion developments. I'm having lots of fun learning about composite sandwiches, high pressure plumbing and the joys of experimental rocketry politics.

Brent Wynn, the reigning tet champion who amazed all with a 1100mm M powered tet at LDRS XV, has graciously given some pointers. I stand on the shoulders of giants (who perhaps wisely have retired to their respective bunkers to see whether it works... or not).

I have traded some info with Jon Hatton on this list but would love to hear from the HPR moderator (you have mail!) and his buddy in Cincinatti that also fly pyramids (as they call them).

For your cert flights, I heartily recommend a rocket that is dead simple to build and doesn't try to set any altitude records thereby complicating single stage recovery. Minimum diameter, dual deployment hybrids are for later.

YMMV

Paul Lavin

Captain Tetrahedron

Team Uranus

UKRA 1276 Level 2

Cuttbow,
Yessir I was there when Carl's masterpiece went up. It was an absolutely perfect flight. Course, Carl is an over achiever and there was no way his level 3 was going to fail. Good luck with your level 2 and remember: take pictures....

Plavin,
Good god man! Where are the pictures? Your tetrahedrons sound awesome. Are you going to try to cert level 3 with one as well? I understand your KISS principle. My level 1 was single deploy. My level 2 was single deploy with alt ejection being primary and motor ejection being backup. For my level 3 I'm going full electronics. Should be fun.

The pix can be found at

https://www.palimpsest.co.uk/KLOB/KLOB.html

for my earliest and most instructive flights ;-)

and

https://www.palimpsest.co.uk/tet/tet.html for my Level 1 flight

I am busy working on the www.captaintetrahedron.com site and it is very very early days (don't look - its more embarassing than spacking the same rocket twice in a weekend!)

I have also replied in another thread on this board having to do with "pyramids"

L3 is the aim for MOAT. I have some pix of the mock ups... the motor is bought, the tanks are in hand, I need some 'glass and plumbing and some other bits and bobs. The hills will be alive with the sound of an Armageddon in a high drag airframe this spring.

Don't forget to duck!

Paul

Captain Tetrahedron

Team Uranus

UKRA 1276 Level 2

Dude, that is fantastic. I'm interested in seeing plans. Be sure to let us know when your website is up.

Now, I gotta ask... What is with the "professional" movie type camera in the first group of pictures? Were you guys in the news?

Really like the photos Paul and I like the title "Tetrahedrons Fly In Cambridgeshire"!!! It fits the landscape so well, Hell before long they might blame you for those crop circles out there Im always hearing about. Keep the photos coming.
Im not sure exactly what project I will pick for Level 2. I will wait until more of you expert rocketeers hand out more wise advice.

John

Originally posted by PGerringer
Dude, that is fantastic. I'm interested in seeing plans. Be sure to let us know when your website is up.

Now, I gotta ask... What is with the "professional" movie type camera in the first group of pictures? Were you guys in the news?

Click to expand...

I have a few other projects on the trot (including a new shower valve in the downstairs bathroom!) before I can get www.captaintetrahedron.com in decent shape...

My 13 year old daughter, the media magnet, was doing her Level 1 under the watchful eye of ITV (BBC's competitor). It was a follow up of some coverage she got in August when she launched the Barbie Space Programme to take the piss out of the British government for not supporting crewed space flight in the European Space Agency.

At the same rocket meeting in August, she trounced members of the UK national team in two competitions (egg lofting and Lamprey parachute duration) and was invited to start a junior national team.

See https://www.palimpsest.co.uk/CC3/CC3.html (or follow the home page links to Canterbury Cup.

She plans to be the first British woman on Mars and is off to a great start ;-)

Paul

Captain Tetrahedron

Team Uranus

UKRA 1276 Level 2

Originally posted by plavin

My 13 year old daughter, the media magnet, was doing her Level 1 under the watchful eye of ITV (BBC's competitor). It was a follow up of some coverage she got in August when she launched the Barbie Space Programme to take the piss out of the British government for not supporting crewed space flight in the European Space Agency.

Click to expand...

And an activist as well. Very cool. Much luck to her and her dreams. Me, I just hope to see a man (or woman) make it to Mars.

John,
I flew a PML "D" Region for my successful L2 Cert. on a Pro 38 J300. I would strongly suggest glassing the fins, I am in the process of doing that to mine, as I experienced some pretty good fin flutter during my flight.
JP

Paul,

As we were discussing via email, I'm really fascinated by that side ejection scheme for the tet that you have going. Any chance we could talk you into posting plans for that? I love "thinking outside the box" and that's a great example of it.

Jon

I'll be happy to spill the beans on Lateral Thinking Technology (patent pending) but I have some stuff to shift off my to do list including ridding Hampshire of its scourge of pheasants (the 'h' is important!) tomorrow, finishing that blasted downstairs shower, and a few other bits of household trivia (including hectoring my Alfa Romeo dealer about the crap car he sold me in September...)

And then... there is the exciting AFTERBURNER project to get onto a test stand for a proof-of-concept firing. We are talking here about revolutionising model rocket propulsion technology, winning the FAI European and World Cup scale model competitions and probably abolishing bad breath in dogs...

Gimme a week and if you haven't had the whole sordid tale sidewider chute deployment for tets by then, bug me! ;-)

Or give me a call Sunday. Remember we are 5 hours ahead. Numbers in my email sig.

Paul

Originally posted by KermieD
Paul,

As we were discussing via email, I'm really fascinated by that side ejection scheme for the tet that you have going. Any chance we could talk you into posting plans for that? I love "thinking outside the box" and that's a great example of it.

Jon

Click to expand...

I have decided to use my "D" Regional for my Lvl 2 attempt. John P. who posted here had said he Lev 2 with this kit, but had a lot of fin flutter and suggested that I glass the fins. He was in the process of doing just that.
After thinking about his suggestion on glassing. I thought " I've yet to build my Tomahawk" So im not going to glass. Im going to order thicker G-10 Fins from PML. Instead of going with the stock .0625. I will use .093s. This should take care of the flin flutter.
My plan was to use a AT-J350, but I seen a Pro38 for the first time at this weekends launch. The guy just screwed the insides in the casing and put it in his rocket. It don't get any easier then that! I might give one of those do hickies a try.

John~

So far, I have seen the following RMS systems:

- Aerotech (AT)
- Animal Motor Works (AMW)
- Cesaroni Pro38 (Pro38)
- HyperTek Hybrids
- Kosdon

Of these various types, Pro38 definitely has the corner on "easy." I own both AT (Dr. Rocket, same thing...) and Pro38 RMS hardware. You can prep and load a Pro38 motor in literally less than a minute. AT reloads take at least 5 or 10 minutes to assemble. Cleanup after the launch is a lot quicker with Pro38, too. All the mess comes out with the part that just unscrews. You don't have to clean the inside of the casing like you do with AT.

Not to say that I don't like AT reloads. Assembling and launching an AT reload gives a certain sense of accomplishment. But... if you want "easy"....

Pro38.

- Ken

AT vs. Pro38, hows the price? More and more I hear about the Pro38's and the easy use delays and assembly. I'm just about to get into the HPR end of the hobby and am looking for a 29 -38 -54 casing set. Still waiting to see what's gonna happen with AT but, if the prices are close, I could go either way.

Opinions?

Originally posted by Stones
AT vs. Pro38, hows the price? More and more I hear about the Pro38's and the easy use delays and assembly. I'm just about to get into the HPR end of the hobby and am looking for a 29 -38 -54 casing set. Still waiting to see what's gonna happen with AT but, if the prices are close, I could go either way.

Opinions?

Click to expand...

There is not much choice at any price: You can buy fresh Pro38 motors and soon Pro54s. The Aerotech pickings, in contrast, are very thin: old stock or stuff made under contract. Quality control ain't what it used to be. Rumours of resumed Aerotech production are often heard but seldom followed by news of shipment ;-(

This sad state may change later this year but all the solid rockets I build are going to be designed around Pro38 or 54 if I am feeling lucky.

Pro38s are so easy to use that the old folks are grousing about the Bad Old Days were misassembled failures were very entertaining to watch from a discrete distance (as long as they happened to somebody else)

I'm getting to grips with hybrids out necessity as much as desire.


Paul

Almost finished with my Lvl 2 rocket. Went with the PML "Tomahawk". Just have to attach the NC to the payload section and paint. Im wondering if I should use metal screws or PML type plastic rivets, maybe a combo of both? Let me have your thoughts.
Im taking my Lvl 2 exam sometime next week. Im going with a Pro38. One of the guys from my local club is lending me the case and selling me the grains. Should fly this project within the next two to three weeks.

Hey!!! Where are the pictures!?!?!?!

Great choice in rockets for your L2. I ordered a package of those plastic rivets and, to me, they are way too small to be useful on anything but smaller projects. If you were around here, I would give them to ya... In fact, email me your address and I will send you 4 or 5 of them. Personally, I would go for metal screws.

Phil~

Thanks for your advice and offer. I will stick with the screws, so no need going thru the time and expence of sending out the plastic rivets As far as the photos, you will have to wait untill after the flight as they have to go thru photo processsing. Im not photo digital yet. Spending all the extra cash on rocketry stuff. Not only that, im right fond of my SLR.
Oh, one other thing. Im painting this one very colorful, tired of the military schemes that camo them selfs into the sky!

Cool... We shall patiently wait for your pictures. But not too long. Good luck on your level 2 bro...

Boy I sure had a hard time finding 1/4" long sheet metal screws @ the local hardware stores here. After going to three differant places I found some that will work. Tonight I will drill and place the screws.
I had mentioned before that I was going to buy the Co-pilot from PML for my Eclipse. After looking around I decided to go with the AltAcc 2C from Blacksky it looks like a great little unit. I ordered it from Scott B. yesturday along with the CPR adapter for my Eclipse.
Im thinking of using it during my Lvl 2 attempt just to see how it works. The one thing im not sure of is how this unit mounts. Scott told me it does'nt need a avionics bay. Just attach it to the payload tube. Have any of you had experience with the Blacksky electronics? If so can someone explain installation in detail?

Thanks~ John

I just installed the Alt Acc in my Lvl 2 rocket.... The instructions were straight forward. No need for an avionics bay, just drill holes accordingly in the BT and screw in. Also booted up the inclosed software on my PC. Can't wait to give it a go. Thanks for all the info guys!!!!! LOL.......

Here are the first set of pixs of my Lvl 2 project. All I have to do is paint, tomorrow I will start with the primer. I have about 8 days to go. March 1st is the day!


https://photos.yahoo.com/cuttbow2

PS: More photos to come.

Nice job !! Are you going to paint it, or just fly it nekkid?

Ken,

Im not sure if I have enough time to paint her the way I would like,so I may just primer. The weather is going to get cold later on this afternoon. No telling how long this cold snap will last. My launch date is next Sat. weather permitting. If It gets warm enough to paint later this week I might give it a try.

Well,I didn't get to attempt my Lvl 2 because of high winds. As I stated before, I was going for the attempt with a naked bird.
Now shes all painted and ready for her second try. This will be this coming Sat April 5th.
Let me stop here for a moment and thank all the people here on the forum who have helped me on the way. First is Phil (aka: Cow hater Phil ). He was kind enough to answer all my stupid questions about epoxys and lead me on the path to use WS epoxy. Then there is Kermie ( The Frog man ), He and I asked a lot of questions of each other earlier on. When we found out that we both were building Lvl 2 projects. Last but most important Midpwrguy, He gave me all the knowledge and a few supplies, to help me finish my Tomahawk with the awsome candy apple red w/ gold & silver flames custom paint job!
This rocket will fly with a Pro38 300 and a Blacksky Alt to record flight data. It sims out at 5300'. It is single deploy,because I listened to those of you who advised me to keep it simple.
Thats the short of it people. Next post I will let you know how it went. Until then here are some photos to keep those mob guys at bay:kill:


https://photos.yahoo.com/cuttbow2

To view all photos in the file please click on next
or view all.


Cutt~

Good Luck to ya Cutt on your L2. The paint job is real COOL!

Just keep'er out of the water this time..To cold to go wading

Sure did a nice paint job cutt. Turned out grate. I still think the guys in your club won't let you fly it looking like that. May have to take a few car keys to it before they let you . LOL

Whew! Too slick! Aren't you afraid that your boundry layer will detach leading to unstability over Mach 2?

Make sure you fit a beeper... a few days in the crops won't make it any shinier!

;-)

Paul