L1 Opinions?

So many rockets, so little money...
Christmas is coming, and with it the wife's permission to spend some buckage at Magnum. I really, really need to settle on an L1 project once and for all.
I kinda want to stick w/ 29mm motors for L1 then move to 38 or 54mm for L2. Aerotech's Astrobee D is looking awfully good to me. That's one of the kits that attracted me back to rocketry in the first place and it seems like an easy convert to H motors. So here's what I'm thinking for mods:
1. No thrust ring or motor hook (duh).
2. Reinforce or replace the centering rings.
3. Kaplows or some other positive retention.
4. Replace the boing cords w/ tubular nylon or kevlar.

I'm uncertain about sticking with the stock ejection gas baffling, otherwise that's it. Please fire back with opinions! If it works I'm gonna do the same thing to a G-Force, after which I plan to move on to some other brands. Those Binder and PML kits look awfully sweet...

This is really a loaded question because the kit that you choose really depends on what you want. It sounds to me like you've got your heart set on the Astrobee D so, I say go for it. If its just scale rockets that you like, then there are alot of other kits that I think would be just as nice or nicer for less money. I flew my level 1 flight on a BSD Rocketry 4" Diablo. I added a 29mm adapter and it flew great on an H165 Redline motor. Unfortunately, Ross doesn't carry BSD kits. I've built LOC Precision kits, Yank Enterprises kits, and Public Enemy kits. They're all high quality. One thing that I would STRONGLY recommend is to go for at least a 38mm diameter MMT! You can adapt down for your L1 flight but, in the future, you ARE going to want to put a bigger motor in it. If you're still convinced that you want an Astrobee D, then I see that Ross sells a Blackhawk R&D 4" Astrobee D with a 38mm MMT for only $5 more than the Aerotech kit. I'd go with that one. If you're open to other types of kits and manufacturers, then get ready to read through alot of recommendations because you're about to get them.

I concur with Mark. Choices for level 1 are many. Peoples opinion on level 1 are many. So, my suggestion is to follow your plan if that is what you have your heart set on.

However, why not go with a Binder or PML kit? They both have some really nice level 1 candidates. I own a PML Pterodactyl, Jr. which is a perfect level 1 kit.

Now about Aerotech's baffling. It works great, but, it does put a restriction on the length of motor you can use. My suggestion is to plan ahead. If the highest motor you will be using in the AD is longer than the baffle allows, then don't use the baffle. Nomex works just fine.

Good luck in what ever you decide to do. Make lots of pictures and keep us informed on your project.

Im going for my Level 1 this weekend,thanks in part to the members of my local club (CRASH), and Ross out at Magnum.
At first I picked up a PML Eclipse. My reason is I wanted a rocket to use for both my Level 1 & 2. The duel deployment sounds like a challenge I wanted to try,not only that, the wind out here in the west can be something fierce to deal with (Blowing over semi-trucks is a regular occurance near the launch field @ Hartsel Colorado elv:8,864'). So the CPR is a big plus. I also like the Kwik-Switch motor mount,this allows you to use 29/38/54mm. This is my winter project until South Park opens again in the spring after the snow melts.
Then I learned that I could use a rocket I already have built. My PML AMRAAM 2 with a 29/180 and a H128W! So rather then wait all winter. Im going to the launch field here in the metro area (Bear creek lake park) and try there this weekend.
Now let me mention that I have the Aerotech Astrobee D as well,but I strongly suggest that you try a PML kit over the Aerotech if you have yet buy your rocket. Aerotech's are nice but the quality of PML floored me! What with the Quantum tube,G-10 fins,piston ejection system(no worrys here that if you use single use motors that paper will get stuck in the baffle system and CATO your bird).
This is just my opinion, I do love my Aerotech Kit's. Well good luck in your decision!

John
Nar#81725

I used a PML D-Region Tomahawk for my L1. It is so stable, it is hard to go wrong with that rocket. I've launched it on everything from a G64 to an I284. It would probably handle a J350, but I don't want to walk that far to find it.

I have kit-bashed 2 aerotech rockets. I took a Barraccuda, and lengthened it, and added dual deployment and a motor mount that will take up to an I200.

I also took a Mirage and put a 38mm motor mount in it and added dual deployment and a wrap of fiberglass. I've put a big I motor in that one, and next up is a J. Wow!

In general, you have to buy a LOT of stuff to upgrade the aerotech kits, and it ends up costing more money than just going with one of the 38mm kits from PML or LOC. I'm glad I did each one; I learned a lot. I wouldn't leap ahead to designing one rocket for L1 and L2 at the same time. You learn more if you take one step at a time and learn it well. Probably the one step I would skip (in hindsight), however, was using a 29mm motor mount. Every time I look at my rockets with 29mm mounts, I just shake my head. What was I thinking! The 38/29 adapters let you use the 29's at first, and you are ALWAYS going to want to use the bigger motors at some point.

-- David

But hey, that's why I asked in the first place!

Thanks for all the input, guys. I still have a lot to consider at this point and am trying to get the best use of my $$. Yep, I like that Astrobee D but I ain't married to it, so to speak. Didn't know Blackhawk made a 4" version. COOL! That's close to full scale if I'm right. !

I hadn't considered a 38/29 adapter, which I agree wouldn't be worth the extra work on an AT kit. And I can see the advantage of a 4" diameter bird anyway. I'd asked on the forum earlier if anyone had built the Binder Stealth 'cause that one looks nice as well.

Here's what I'm kicking around right now:

1. Astrobee D (maybe the 4" version)
2. Binder Stealth
3. PML MiniBBX (neat but it's a small diameter)
4. PML Endeavor (are tandem fins that big of a deal?)
5. your suggestions here...

While I'm at it, let me throw out a BIG piece of raw meat...
NAR or TRA? I may actually get more flying done with NAR down in Cincinatti since their VOA field is usable in the summer (unfortunately TRA's fields are all farmed and thus usable only during the "off season"...which is bad in Ohio). And I noticed TRA's dues have gotten pretty steep...but then again they're more oriented towards the kind of stuff I want to fly.

I almost bought a Binder Stealth to use for flying my 300cc Hypertek "I" motors however, I got a good deal on a LOC Precision EZI-65 instead. I would go with the Stealth with the 54mm mount. It's only $10 bucks more and it gives you even more options. You can still adapt down from 54 to 29mm.

As far as NAR/TRA goes, the only benefit that TRA gives you over NAR is their support for Experimental rocketry. If you're not planning on doing any of that soon, I'd go with NAR and save yourself some money. If in the future you want to do EX, then you can just add TRA and have dual membership. I knew that I wanted to do EX from the beginning which is why I joined TRA but, I intend to also join NAR too. It's that procrastination thing that keeps preventing me from doing it and the fact that there are more things to spend my money on than there is money to spend!

Originally posted by cuttbow2
Then I learned that I could use a rocket I already have built. My PML AMRAAM 2 with a 29/180 and a H128W!

Click to expand...

Wow, I hope that's a BIG field. An H128 in my 3lb Phoenix puts it up about 2700'. In a 2" AMRAAM, it will be out of sight.

Good luck!
Alan

The many choices on L1 birds are good, pick one you like for the price you're willing to pay Don't forget, if you buy a little bigger/heavier rocket, you can always do your L1 cert on an high-thrust H OR I motor. Personally, I like the idea of a 4" rocket for L1, that way you can see the whole flight. Did my L1 on a stock PML Callisto and an H128. Very high, nerve-wracking flight for a newbie.

As far as TRA/NAR, join the one affilliated with the local club you think you will be flying with the most. If you join TRA, forget the magazine subscription.

My $0.02, --Lance.

Based on this question and the same question prior on RMR... I added a sort/search feature to EMRR.

Now by going here you can select Level 1, 2 or 3 to see which rockets our authors have selected for their own personal certification rockets.

My rocket was the PML Callisto!

Enjoy.
Nick

Nice work Nick...

Thanks to everyone for their input. This is a great forum! I've narrowed down the list a little bit and am still planning on the Aerotech kit, just 'cause I love the thing and found it for $60 via Great Lakes Hobbies. The few mods I'd make to it won't cost much, and I like the idea of devising my own mods. And to be honest I can't see affording much more than a 29mm RMS system for the near future considering how often I'm likely to fly it on H's or I's.

Been giving a lot of thought to what kinds of rockets will I be flying most often, considering local weather and available fields...and the answer is mid-to-low power. I honestly don't see being able to fly HPR more than a half-dozen times a year. And I can think of lots of ways to have fun with those Apogee Medalist E's & F's when they go back in production! Guess I'm going w/ NAR for now.

BTW, ya'll will enjoy this. Was checking out EMRR reviews of the Estes Merc/Redstone and Saturn V today. My 4-year-old was looking over my shoulder and said, "Oh, yeah, that's what me and Mommy got you for Christmas! Don't say anything 'cause she said it's a SECRET!". Love that kid!

I loved the Astrobeed D I had. I made it a dual deployment rocket by using a coupler/electronics bay. If I wanted to fly it in "standard" deployment mode, I just friction fitted the standard AT coupler. The rocket flew well up to an I-161 with no strengtheneing. Of course I did use a 38mm motor mount but that was it. It's only weak point is the plastic fins. Mine broke one upon landing.

Any opinions about Yank's 3" Black Brant X? That looks like a good L1 project, and I like the looks of it as much as the Astrobee D. Price ain't bad either. Was comparing it to PML's Mini BBX and it just seems better to go BIGGER for L1!

I know that Kermie did his L1 with that rocket. Have you read his review on www.rocketreviews.com in the new L1 section?

It is a cool looking rocket......... Marty

I love the Yank 3" BBX. It's flown very well for me on H242's and I357's. I really like tall rockets, so this one was an easy choice for me.

If you decide to go with this one, make SURE you glass the fins from tip to tip. With the fins extending off the back of the rocket like that, they're prone to splitting if the tail end of the rocket is spinning when it hits. Also make sure you weigh your rocket before selecting a chute. You'll probably want to go up one size over the included chute.

The H242 is a perfect motor to certify with this one. Plenty of juice to get it off the pad straight and apogee at under 2000 feet. Deployment at that altitude is easy to see and you won't have to walk too far to get it. The one I got still had the Yank flexible phenolic in it. You may wish to check on that with the dealer if you decide to purchase this one. With something that tall and narrow, you may wish to glass the tubes if it's made out of Kraft.

Oh, yeah. and if your club supports it, ditch the launch lugs and go with rail buttons from www.railbuttons.com. They're cheap, easy to install (I didn't even bother aiming at the centering rings with the flexible phenolic--just epoxied the threads and used the drill to screw 'em in), and you don't have to worry about matching a rod size. Keep the lugs though. They're good for smoothing fillets.

Boy did I hit paydirt with that question! Never had so many replies this soon!
Thanks Kermie. I did see your EMRR review, BTW. The BBX is really appealing for a lot of reasons. I like scale rockets (thus the attraction I still have for the Astrobee), and tall rockets. But the 4" BBX is just too much. And a 38mm mount is probably the most motor I can afford for now...and that might even be pushing it!

About glassing the fins - I have no experience with that at all. Is it expensive? Do I need a vacuum bagger? Could I just ask them to upgrade me to 3/16" ply instead?

I WANT IT ALL! I WANT IT NOW! I sound like my kids...

Originally posted by Chilly
About glassing the fins - I have no experience with that at all. Is it expensive? Do I need a vacuum bagger? Could I just ask them to upgrade me to 3/16" ply instead?

Click to expand...

About glassing, its not hard. All you need is some good thin epoxy, some rubber gloves, a glue brush, and some fiberglass cloth. There are several threads on the forum here that will tell you different techniques for laying up glass so, I won't rehash them here. It's really pretty easy and the sense of accomplishment you get from doing it will make the effort worth while.

A couple of other nice things to have for glassing tip to tip are are some sort of a metal straightedge and some plastic squeegees (sp?). You can find the squeegies at any Hobby Lobby, built expressly for this purpose (NHP brand, I believe).

It makes the job much easier if you just wedge the straightedge by the joint where the fin meets the tube and using the squeegee to smoothe the cloth out to the fin tip and then across the body tube (got this idea from Carl I think, so can't claim credit for it).

It's work, but it's easier than you think.

The longer I think about this, the more conflicted I get! Unfortunately it looks like the Yank BBX is history until LOC starts shipping them with Kraft tubes. Haven't been able to find one.
The thing I keep getting hung up on is a 29 vs 38mm mount. Haven't done RMS at all yet, even mid-power. It'd be nice to build one that could fly on either G or H power depending on my launch site (guess that's what adapters are for, hmm?). I know everybody advises to go 38 or bigger.
So...
Do most people go with RMS motors or single-use for their L1 flight? It's a little intimidating to jump into reloads for my cert flight, but the SU's don't have those aft thrust rings (do they)? So how do you retain them except w/ masking tape?
Too many questions, I'll just go back to finishing the Merc/Redstone I got for Christmas...

annother option..

pro38 motors are easy to assemble, and generally cheaper than aerotech
loads and casings.

One thing to keep in mind is that it becomes kinda difficult to use single use motors for certification because, technically, you must have a LEUP to purchase one. RMS motors (ie. Easy Access) will allow you to certify without a LEUP and they are more readily available. There are onsite vendors who will sell you a single use motor for certification onsite but, those arrangements are getting harder to make.

You'll never regret getting a 38mm MMT even if you only ever fly 29mm motors.

Wellll.... I'll just toss out my personal experience here.

I have been launching at Whitakers for about two years now. I have probably seen about a dozen L1 flights. To the best of my remembrance, all of them used RMS.

RMS *can* be a little intimidating at first. I did my first RMS, a 24mm D15 Aerotech reload, all by myself. Well - actually, my son was with me. So we read the instructions, reread the instructions, and them I assembled it while he watched over my shoulder. It worked exactly as advertised. After we finished dancing and acting like idiots, we retrieved the rocket (an Estes Broadsword), removed the RMS casing, disassembled and cleaned it, and then my son reloaded it for another flight - but this time on an F12. Needless to say, we were hooked.

I would go with RMS. Whoever is going to cert you will provide advice and guidance while you assemble the RMS.

Also, I would go with a 38mm MMT. Right now, it can be somewhat difficult to obtain a 29mm H Aerotech reload. However, Pro38 2 grain H reloads are generally available, but.... they are 38mm. However, you can't get any simpler than a Pro38 RMS. You just take the reload out of its plastic bag, adjust the delay timing with the DAT (Delay Adjustment Tool), and then screw the reload into the casing. Much simpler than the Aerotechs, which have a lot more pieces and steps.

With the 38mm MMT and a 29mm MMT adapter, you will be ready for whatever type of H reload you can get your hands on. Aerotech makes H reloads for both 29mm and 38mm.

Hope this helps.
- Ken

Some more personal experience here:

All of the dozen and a half level one flights that I have seen used RMS motors. 90% of those were done with either the 29mm H128 or 38mm H123.

Originally, dad and I were intimidated by the RMS motors, so, we purchased a 29mm RMS motor casing. This is the one used for reloads E-G. We did two flights with that reload casing to get the hang of RMS motors. Once we saw how much we like RMS motors we ordered his lvl. 1 kit; a PML Patriot with a 38mm motor mount, planning to fly it on an H128 with an adapter.

We decided that we didn't want the adapter any more because we knew we would like to fly the patriot on larger motors like an I211. We bought the 38mm system from Magnum (great investment) and flew it on an H123 for a perfect flight.

In fact, we haven't until this day flown a 29mm reload over a G64. Just goes to show things go both ways. Maybe you'll never fly a 38mm motor but still get the 38 MMT. You never know. Also, we never thought we would go lvl. 2 but we did and if you're lvl. 1 rocket has a 38mm MMt then you can use the lower section as a fin can in a lvl. 2 bird...just add an electronics bay.

Just my 02.

David

Originally posted by Chilly

Do most people go with RMS motors or single-use for their L1 flight? It's a little intimidating to jump into reloads for my cert flight, but the SU's don't have those aft thrust rings (do they)? So how do you retain them except w/ masking tape?

Click to expand...

To keep them going forward, you'd need a masking tape thrust ring at the business end of the motor. Otherwise, standard retention methods should work. If not, you'll be friction-fitting your motors with masking tape the old fashioned way.

I think these days, going for L1 with an RMS motor is almost standard.

Great thread guys - I'm really glad your all so helpful with questions like this - you've saved me from having to ask them again.

Thanks !

Isn't the search function handy?

Absolutely !

I've been using it a ton lately, especially in regards to threads like this, and anything dealing with the Astrobee-D by Aerotech. Thankfully this forum keeps their archives intact, and doesn't throw them away after a few months like others that I'm a member of.

^5ss the staff members for that ..8)

Build ya a 29 or 38mm Crayon its the cheapest thing Ive built with alot of potental for cert flights but if its a kit ya want PML AMRAAM 2 or 3. I just got done with my 4 Ill be painting it this weekend It was a snap to put together just remember to sand the QT before ya epoxy it