Whats all this talk about...?

I am very new to the concept of high power rocketry. I have been building and flying low powered ones (estes models, using up to C sized engines) for about 10 years now off an on. I am really starting to pick it back up now, and I cam upon this site. After doing MUCH lurking, and checking out a lot of these high powered creations, my interest has been sparked even more.

What are these liscenses, or permits that you speak of? where and how could they be obtained? Any info is appreciated

What is a good high powered rocket kit to start in the ways of high power? I consider myself a decent modeller, and would like to get into some of this action.

Thanks

Riz

I'm sure others here can fill in where I miss information. There are 2 major US organizations dedicated to the hobby of Rocketry. The National Association of Rocketry (NAR) and the Tripoli Rocketry Association (TRA). There really aren't any licenses or permits. The average consumer can purchase and fly any rocket motor up to "G" impulse without any problems. Motors in the "H" and "I" range can only be sold to individuals who have been certified by one of the above mentioned organizations. There are currently 3 levels of certification available from NAR and TRA. Level 1 allows individuals to purchase and fly "H-I" impulse motors, Level 2 allows "J-L" impulse motors and Level 3 allows "M and up" impulse motors. Certification is free but, you must belong to one of the 2 organizations. There are some other regulations about the weight of the rocket which I can't remember at the moment. The only "permit" required is really a waiver from the FAA. I can't remember the exact threshold where a waiver is required but it has to do with how high the rocket will fly and how heavy it is. There is a wealth of information of each of the organization's website.

National Association of Rocketry
Tripoli Rocketry Association

Hope this helps. I'm sure there are many others here who can fill in the holes I've left.

Actually (and I could be mistaken, God knows I've gotten enough wrong on here), I don't think the requirement for a waiver has anything to do with altitude, although a waiver will state a maximum altitude you're allowed to fly your waivered rockets to. Any rocket that weights less than 1 lb. *with the motor in it* is classified as a model rocket and requires no notification or waiver. Anything from 1 lb. to 3.3 lbs. is classified as a "large model rocket" and requires notification of the FAA *and* the nearest airport manager if the launch is within 5 miles of an airport. Anything over 3.3 lbs. is considered a high powered rocket and requires the waiver.

According to the Apogee website, the Aspire, weighing in at around 3 oz. dry can hit over a mile on an Apogee F10 (if they ever come back into production) with no notification or waiver required.

There are also ATF regulations that you have to follow. If the motor has more than 62.5 grams of propellant, then it is a restricted motor. This now INCLUDES "easy access" motors, the ATF has confiscated "easy access" motors from people in Illinois and California that I know of for not storing them properly. Tripoli and NAR are now in a legal battle against the ATF to get our rocket engines declassified as explosives which would give them no ATF regulations. Pretty much what you need to do to comply with these regulations is to (1) buy and fly the motors the same day in the same state that you live in, or (2) get a LEUP. a LEUP is a low explosives users permit where pretty much you give the ATF the right to put your name on a list of people with "explosives", you allow them to unannounced search of your house, have to doccument all of the traffic of the explosives in your possesion, and so on and so on. Its also expensive, I think $100/year to have a permit.

Here is a website that gives more ATF regulation information https://www.info-central.org/index.cgi?regulation

I am lucky enough to be in a big enough club where there are multiple motor vendors at the launches, and the launches are in the same state that I live in. I just buy and burn the HPR motors in the same day

This also doesn't affect most hybrid motors, I can have as many hypertek hybrid "M" grains in my house as I want to. Aerotech turbo hybrids have AP grains in them, and some of those are regulated motors though.

I hope I haven't scared you away from the hobby.... HPR rocketry is really fun and rewarding, and our battle with the ATF has a chance of winning, which would make us all happy

-Brian Barney

Thanks for all the info regarding the rocketry associations, and the regulations of flying HPR. It is sure to be useful once I begin my first big rocket.

But that brings me back to my original post, do they sell god model kits for these larger rockets? Or is everything you make from scratch? Where do you get your modelling stuff? Online?

I am very excited to try my hand at building and launching new and more interesting rockets, so thanks ahead of time.

HEHEHE, Playdo, did you get all of that? It is never really an easy answer is it? I think the guys previous did a very thorough job of explaining the rules and regulations. One thing they did miss is that you need to be 18 to certify.

Now I will tell you what rockets to buy next. May I suggest that you buy and Aerotech Mustang (https://www.aerotech-rocketry.com/). Simply the best mid-powered kit on the face of the planet, IMHO. Everyone should have one in their hanger. She works best on an E but will take a G to 3,000'. That kit will also introduce you to the elegence of an Aerotech kit. It will also show you the difference between a low powered kit and a mid powered kit: Thicker fins, stronger body, much tougher motor mounting, etc.

After working with the Mustang for awhile then look at some of the other kits PML (https://www.publicmissiles.com/) has to offer. They have a ton of spectacular kits that range up to M power. This will also introduce you to the piston ejection system. Although I have never had a problem with the piston, others hate them. But you must have at least one of them in your hanger.

For your first step into High-Powered, may I suggest the Pterodactyl, Jr. by PML? This will introduce you to PML G-10 fins as well as 38mm motors. It will take an H for a low flight or I for a high flight. Perfect for a level 1 attempt.

Once you get ready for level 2, the PML AMRAAM 4 is a perfect rocket for J-K flights. Course, by then you will probably be more interested in designing your own rocket. PML also has tons of pieces and parts to help you there. And, Apogee makes RockSim that will help you design and figure out the flight dynamics of your design.

Next is level 3. There are alot of level 3 kits out there but many TAPS wont approve them for level 3. So ask before you buy. I was able to do the Mega Nuk from Smokin Rockets. (https://members.aol.com/SMOKINRKTS/)

Anyway, that is your task young pad-wan learner. And may the force be with you.

Originally posted by PGerringer
Although I have never had a problem with the piston, others hate them.

Click to expand...

Why's that?

There are several reasons. If you have quantum tube as body tube you should know that it expands and shrinks based on the weather. It is possible that if you do not have enough play in your piston it can get stuck when the quantum tube contracts. If you have a paper tube, one little ding or wrinkle in the body tube can also cause the piston to bind. Either way, if the piston gets stuck, it is possible that you will end up with a blown tube or worse, your chute doesn't deploy.

Personally, I have had pistons in both quantum and paper tubing. I have had no problems at all. Course my pistons are quite loose, they slide down the tube on their own weight. I also use baby powder on the wall of the body tube to help everything slide out easy.

if you use the zipperless design, pistons aren't necessary at all.

On my limited income and budget, PML kits are sorta expensive for the size/features of the rocket you get (OK, mainly size...I love big rockets, and it's my opinion only, most will probably disagree). Of course, I say that and I'm dying to get my hands on a Pterodactyl. I may borrow the plans for a scratch build. You might also want to look into LOC/Precision, BSD Rocketry, Public Enemy Rockets or a handful of others. For looks, Binder Design and DG&A put out some pretty slick kits, and structurally, Yank Enterprises make kits that are awfully hard to top.

Oddly enough, your choices for high power are much broader than the low powered stuff out there today.

Honestly, though, I agree with Phil 100%. Get an Aerotech kit for starters. They're a fantastic introduction to a number of the techniques you'll be using in high power, and once you get a taste of the noise and power of a composite motor, you'll be hooked.

There are lots of different HPR rocket kits on the market, besides PML and aerotech that were already mentioned, there is LOC precision (www.locprecision.com) Blackhawk R&D (https://www.blackhawkrd.com/) I mostly scratchbuild my rockets. I use flexible phenolic airframe tubing for the most part. It is available from giant leap (www.giantleaprocketry.com)

It might be good to start off with kits and then when you are familiar with techniques used in the rockets, you can start designing your own... I have most of my fun designing and building the rockets, flying them is just icing on the cake go to www.nar.org and find a club that is close to you, and see if you could come out to a HPR launch.... they are very cool to watch and ask questions at.

-Brian Barney

Some other possibilities for HPR kits include:

BSD Rocketry
Binder Design
Yank Enterprises
LOC Precision

and a lot of kits and other things can be located through Magnum Rockets

Maybe I just missed somewhere someone mentioned this but u might go to www.rocketryonline.com.

Also, a plan to get permanently hooked on AP goes like this:

Step 1: Become a member of NAR
Step 2: Buy a Aerotech Initiator Starter kit (if u plan to fly by yourself, without a club) or a Mustang (if u do join a club).
Step 3: Go to a launch of a nearby club around you (look on NAR's site for a club near you)
Step 4: Join that club and become an active and curious member
Step 5: Fly some mid power kits, get another aerotech kit, or play the field a bit and buy a small loc or pml kit. It is a good idea to get a kit that can fly on a G for mid power flights or can be used for your level 1 cert. at a later date on an H.
Step 6: Get your level one cert.
Step 7: Prepare ur credit cards for the biggest hit ever when you start getting ideas for that level two or cluster/staged rocket.
Step 8: Follow the breadcrumbs left by Gerringer or Tulanko to truly express the limits of your credit cards and maybe get your level 3.

Did I miss anything?

ohh, yeah, don't forget to lawndart a few and make some mistakes, but learn from them. That's what makes this worthwhile and rewarding.

Now, after reading this, u are probably a bit scared. Don't be. This hobby is the best there is. Nothing can beat the comraderie (spelled right?) of high power rocket enthusiasts. That's what gets us hooked. The feeling of being able to improve designs, show our friends and see the reward in a perfect flight.

Dave

Ya'll did a purty good job of summarizing everything there is to know about rocketry

And cows. Great cows in rocketry. You haven't experienced all there is to rocketry until you meet a cow while fetching a rocket. Right Phil?.....Phil?




Anyone seen Phil?

MMOOOOOOOOOOOO!

lol, cows? Must be some big fields.......!

I am lucky to get a double baseball field around my nieghborhood. Of coarse, if I become as active as I plan on becoming, I will be driving longer distances to get good fields.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread, I am very interested and just as likely to take my rocketry to the next level. I went to my hobby shop today and bought a few small things, for some smaller rockets (post for the LP forum....). But buying this stuff just made me happy and I cant wait till I start working more (just got my job back... only small hours right now) so I can spend more! lol.

I wont be joining the NAR or any local organizations in the very near future, just for the lone fact of membership fees. Once I can afford that, I will be sure to scope it out.

After I finish all of the building, repairing, and remodelling of my current smaller rockets, I will definitely check out some of the mentioned products!

Thanks again!

Riz

Even if you don't join a club yet, it's fun to go check one out. You have two NAR sections right there in CT, CATO and NARCONN. You can just go to a launch and most of them will let you shoot your LPR stuff without joining (maybe for a small fee...our club charges $5). Launching rockets is more fun with a group and you'll meet a bunch of really great people.

By the way...to the best of my knowledge, the Spitfire only comes in the Mega Maxx starter kit....what happened to your Goliath? Ours is still hung up about 40 feet in a rocket eating tree!

'Round these parts cows and rockets go together like bread and butter, biscuits and gravy, pork BBQ and slaw.... man now I'm hungry.

Ah, I see you're in Connecticut. I grew up in Shelton.

If you can get to Countdown Hobbies in Bethel, CT, DO IT! Just do it after you've saved up a couple of paychecks; you're gonna blow most of it within 30 feet of the door! They've got rocket kits in stock from just about every rocket kit manufacturer known to man [even some out of business, like AAA].

I might also add that if you ever need to find a rocket-related business online, look them up at:

https://www.ninfinger.org/~sven/rockets/rmrfaq.2.html

NARCONN is a good club with good folks that flies in upstate New York [hence, their membership base is in western CT]. CATO is slightly newer and caters to rocket flyers in the eastern half of the state. They fly at the Durham Fairgrounds during the summer, and a field out in Sterling in winter.

I think I will have to check out NARCONN or CATO when they launch one day.

Shelton huh? I live not 10 miles from there, in a crappy town called Naugatuck. I am sure you know of it. I lived in Ansonia for 2 years, and I constantly travel around the valley (and shelton, since it isnt really part of the valley....). I work at The Griffin Hospital and Volunteer for the Valley United Way Louth Leadership Program. So somehwere along that line, you will know where I am!

I will have to check out Countdown, but for now I go to JP's Hobby shop (now in Ansonia). They don't have a huge selection of Rocketry stuff, but it definitly works for me.

And the Goliath..... hmmm its been a real long time since I purchased the kit, so I dont remember even building that. My brother might have built that, and I took the Spitfire. I am sure that (since I dont have it anywhere) it is up in a tree somewhere lost and forgotten... The Spitfire is cool though, and I finally painted it and I want to put the decals (Ok, stickers...) on. I want to check out the pics from Estes first, but if I cant find them, I am sure I could figure out the locations of 8 decals.

And speaking of rocket eating trees....... I have to go fill my paintball gun's CO2 tank so that I may shoot the Alpha II down from a 60 ft grabbing limb from downtown....

Later,
Riz

OOOOOOO, paintball....(drooling)

Ya know, I love paintball and rocketry but I never thought of a way to combine the two.

You just gave me some very INTERESTING ideas...hmmm...

Anyone ever think of filling up one of those litttle used CO2 tanks (used in BB guns) with NOX and then capping it somehow and attaching it to a 24mm or 29mm casing...hmmm..GTG

Dave

Originally posted by MaverickLV
OOOOOOO, paintball....(drooling)

Ya know, I love paintball and rocketry but I never thought of a way to combine the two.

You just gave me some very INTERESTING ideas...hmmm...

Anyone ever think of filling up one of those litttle used CO2 tanks (used in BB guns) with NOX and then capping it somehow and attaching it to a 24mm or 29mm casing...hmmm..GTG

Dave

Click to expand...

Uhhhh, that's what a Hypertek motor is. It's a CO2 tank from Parker attached to a custom designed injector bell and a molded plastic fuel grain.

Originally posted by MaverickLV
...Anyone ever think of filling up one of those litttle used CO2 tanks (used in BB guns) with NOX and then capping it somehow and attaching it to a 24mm or 29mm casing...hmmm..GTG

Dave

Click to expand...

Better yet, buy some pre-filled with nitrous from a housewares store....and buy or make a micro-hybrid

Rene Caldera's site

Dudes!!! My son and I do paintball and rockets too!!! How cool is that? We shoot modified Spyders with Mako Storm grips. Jonathan is saving up for a Matrix. Too Cool!

Fan-flippin'-tastic idea! I never thought about using a paintball gun for rocket retrieval! Just enough mass to get it off without wrecking the rocket! And if it breaks on the rocket, it's a battle scar. I'd even leave it on there myself.

Rocket retrieval? I though you guys were gonna paint them that way! Where's Lee when you need him?

We'll be happy to decorate YOU that way. Stand still now. It'll be fine. When we're done, just say "moo" a lot and follow Phil.

Actually, that does sound like a fun paint scheme even if it does seem to be kinda sacrilegious to shoot something AT a rocket if you don't have to.

Dang! So I have to disguise myself if I ever meet you? Maybe wear a cow costume?

LOL, you guys are a riot!!!

Mark, I know that is what a hypertek hybrid is...I was just saying it would be neat to make a "micro" one like rstaff said. It seems that no one has made a small 29mm or any 24mm hybrids yet and I think it would be freackin' awesome. BooYah!

As Far as the paintball paintscheme, once you were done, could you put on a coat of clear gloss to protect it or would that dissolve the "paint" which is actually just colored vegetable oil?hmmmm...more ideas....back to the garage...no....wait a minute....I got it!

TELL PHIL TO CONVINCE HIS WIFE THAT WHAT SHE REALLY WANTS NOW IN THE BATHROOM IS A PAINTBALL SPLATTER DESIGN!

Okay, everyone over to Phil's house and bring the paintball gun...time for a night of boozin' and shootin' at Phil's.

...(crying)...Boohoo....this reminds me back of my hillbilly like bachelors party...(crying)...wait a minute...I'm 15...nevermind

Dave

Once we are done with the house..we can give the cows outside a unique pattern of coloration....

Ohhhh Dick, Dick? Where are you Dick? HAhahahahahaha.

(Synical laughing)

Dave