Level 2 Project? Now level 2 kit!

Hi guys,
I know I was talking about a 1/2 Scale Patriot before and that my dad would probably use this to cert. level 2, but there has been a change in plans. After talking some more with my dad about his level two he informed me that he is one of those folks who likes the flights high and out of sight. He is not really into the low and slow concept, so instead of upgrading to a K motor in what would be a 15lbs. beast, we have chosen a smaller, sleeker, higher performance kit that get going on a J350....

The PML Eclipse with CPR 3000, QT, and the KS2000 MMT. On a J350 it should be able to reach about 3000 ft.

Other problems with the Patriot: Time to make all the custom parts-too long. Getting it to the launch site 2 hrs away- almost impossible unless we put it on the roof.

I bought the Eclipse from Discount Hobby Center for $150 as well as a couple other little projects, LOC Legacy (going to fibergalss the fins on this one) , Aerotech HV Arcas (my mom's first rocket).

I will start the Eclipse as soon as I order the Epoxy from PML and if you still want me to take pics of construction I will. Unfortunately, I don't have a digital camera so getting pics developed may take a couple of days. Also, I just finished my high performance PML Thunder N' Lightning complete with an awesome paint scheme (lighting bolts, metalic lettering, gradiant fade). If you guys want any pics of this let me know and I will get them out as soon as possible.

Anyway, sorry to disappoint, but no BIG projects here

David Kneble

Hell yeah we want pics now!!!! Sounds like you have alot of good building ahead of you... I'm interested in seeing your Thunder and Lightning. It looks cool at PML.

I'm impressed, you got your whole family addicted.

Alright guys, I have the pics for you but how do I post them? I have them saved as JPEG files (they are not on a website).

Dave

You can insert one picture (some size limit) on a composed message. Could also post on alt.binaries.models.rockets.

Alright, finally here are the pics. Sorry I was a little late in getting them out here. The pics I took with the regular camera didn't develope right so I just took polaroids and scanned them in to the computer. The images aren't the best quality but they should do for now. I will be taking more pics later on and will add them.


-Pic of Thunder N' Lightning Booster

-T and L Sustainer

-T and L assembled

-Picture of some of my current projects (Eclipse parts, my mom's HV Arcas-not started yet, not included in photo is my nearly finshed LOC Legacy with 'glassed fin can)

I have the pics for everyone to see, but the files are too big to post them on the forum. So, anyone who wants to see the pics, just post on the forum that you would like to see them and give me your e-mail address. I will send them to you as soon as possible. Or just e-mail me and request pics.

David Kneble
[email protected]

Oooo :raises hand:

Can you use winzip and compress them? If you can, then you can put the zipped file on the forum.

If they are JPGs, they are already as compressed as they can be. Exactly how big are the files, byte-wise and dimensionally?

Ok, they are JPEG, so Winzip only compresses them a very little bit. They range in "Byte size" (hehe) from 200Kb to 453Kb and the images on a piece of paper are about 6" x 7" or so.

I already recieved one request from an individual asking for pics so, don't be shy, just let me know and I'll e-mail them, unless somebody else has a better idea...

Maybe Phillip would post them on his website and create a link to them if I e-mailed the pics to him....maybe?

Dave

Yo Dave,
Email them to me and I will put them out there for you to link to...

Alright, sounds good, but what's your e-mail address Phil. Sorry, I don't know.

Dave

No problem, coming at ya...

Only thing I'd warn you and your dad about is the dangers of doing any certification on a "high and outta-sight" flight.

The key to certifying is to make sure that the certifying official (be they a prefect or whatever) can see your entire flight without the aid of artificial visual enhancements. In other words, if they gotta use binoculars to find your rocket, you probably won't certify. A small, fast, extreme altitude bird on a butt-kickin' motor isn't such a great idea for a cert flight. As a past prefect, I used to tell potential certifiers "If'n I can't see it, I can't certify it!"

On the other hand, slow is NOT good for certifications, as it puts you in danger of having a rocket that doesn't get enough speed to become stable.

The trick is to strike a balance. Fortunately, with the Eclipse, it sounds like you've done just that. You'll get about 3500 ft. and with the CPR 3000, you should get it back close. It's still a little high for my taste for a certification, but a lot of that depends on the range you'll be flying it from. Is it a fairly large field? Lots of flat space with no trees? Good recovery area? Try to fly it on as clear a day as possible. Paint it with high-altitude visibility in mind. Invest in a good altimeter.

Remind your dad to build it strong and be careful with the Quantum tubing. You end up trading one set of problems (phenolic) for another (plastic). Scuff the surface good. Solid fillets are a must.

--JohnK.
TRA 2499/L3
Past Prefect, Tripoli Atlanta Rocketry Association

Thanks Phil for excepting the idea of posting pics on your site.

Thanks John for the helpful advice on the level 2 cert. flight. The field is fairly large (1 mile x 2 miles) with no trees in this area, we have invested in a PML Co-Pilot altimeter as well as other accessories, knowing how my dad and I built our last two PML rockets (with QT), a 1/4 Patriot and as you all know a PML Thunder N Lightning, the rocket WILL be heavier than PML says and so the flight will probably be about 2500-2800 feet, and the rocket will be built very sturdy, even more sturdy than out Patriot which, well, let me explain...

At NARAM 43 this past summer, we flew our Patriot on an H123W and the first time, the motor ejected right after burnout. The result was a 3/4" zipper, not much and we were able to fly it again on Sunday. This time, motor ejection was closer to apogee but the piston got stuck (don't know why, it was a pretty loose fit) and so the payload bay snapped back when it reached the end of the shock cord and the G10 fin actually cut right through the NC. There was a 7" long slit in the NC from where the fin went in and the only damage to the fin was 2 very small chips of paint (I thinked they may have chipped off even before this flight, not sure). No broken epoxy joints or anything. Thats sturdy!

David Kneble

Well, here is the link to the pics of T & L and my current projects which BTW all I have to do is paint my 'glassed LOC Legacy (not in Pic), help mom paint her HV Arcas (she actually finished it), and start the Eclipse (the parts on the floor in the projects pic are just for the Eclipse) with my dad over spring break.

Once again I would like to thank Phil for posting these pics on his site.

...Applause... cheering... the familar chant of... go Phil, go Phil, you rock!...

David Kneble

Dave's Pics

Awwwwww :blushing: Youre welcome.

The T&L is absolutely beautiful!!!

David K - EXCELLENT !!! You're T&L looks great. Noticed you had a furry friend in one pic. Your construction supervisor, perhaps?

"Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as gods. Cats have never forgotten this...."

Also - please don't keep complimenting Phil that way... his wife is already complaining that his head is disproportionately large compared to the rest of his body.

Your piston stuck?

It probably got cockeyed in the tube.

Another item I forgot to mention:

THROW AWAY THE PISTON!

It just ain't worth it! I've seen more broken rockets because of stuck pistons than I care to. I remember one guy putting a label on his piston with his name and address. Of course, it was too tight. Loose pistons seem to get one side pushed higher than the other, making it catch and stick in the tube. Some people have incredible luck with them, while others don't.

Generally, I prefer to leave the piston out, using the red strapping for a basic shock anchor and use a Nomex chute protector and shock line protector rather than a piston. Use the D ring, just sew the end of the red strap over it with a box stitch.

Yeah, I know T&L is beautiful, but, seriously the pics just don't show the metallic lettering or the five different shades in the gradiant fade or the feathered edges on the lightning bolts. So I will be getting better pics of it, as well as of my mom's HV Arcas, my LOC Legacy, and pics of the contruction of my...I mean my father's...Eclipse! Phil says he'll post them on his site for all to see, thanks again Phil.

....Phil's going to need a larger hat after all these thank yous...
BTW- Phil, please tell your wife I'm sorry!

As far as the cat goes, well, actually she is my supervisor. Its crazy! They say cats have sensitive ears but when I'm "crankin it up to full tilt boogey" while 'glassing some fins or something, guess whos right there?

Now, about that piston. I haven't had trouble with it since and I believe that what happened was that a small piece of the nomex shock cord protector that I was using got jammed between the airframe and the piston. (I am still considering getting rid of it, especially if I modify it for dual deployment)

Dave

PS- Phil I know how it is to have to keep peace in the house. Over my Spring Break (5 day weekend) in order to be able to work on any of my rockets I had to first clean the whole house, and then clean up my LEGOS which I have stored in droors in my basement. Which meant taking out several thousand lego pieces and kits, putting them in plastic ziploc bags and storing them in boxes in the attic.

LOL!!!!

Hi everyone, sorry I have not updated you on Eclipse construction yet but I was really busy.

Day 1 of Construction- Thursday

I checked all of the components for the Eclipse. Assembled the 29mm adapter tube.

Not much done, could only work for about a half hour because dad had to leave. Yes, my dad is building a lot of this rocket, considering it will be his level two, I just act as a helper and speed things up a little. You know, before he gets home I sand tubes and fins and take measurements so when he gets home we can get right to work. Also, because it takes a while we usually split up the fillet work; I'll do half and he'll do half when he gets a chance. Does anyone know of any rules against having your son help you in building your level two?

Day 2-Friday

Assembled 38mm adapter tube.
Assembled mother tube (54mm) and epoxied on centering ring.
Attached tubualr nylon to mother tube.
Epoxied mother tube slotted airframe.
Assembled Coupler for fin can.
Assembled fore mounting section for CPR unit (altimeter mounting tube, centering rings, threaded connection).
Assembled aft mounting section for CPR unit (same as above).

I also managed to get over to Hobbytown USA and get some paint. As soon as I got home I painted my Loc legacy. Metallic silver at the top, faded down to metallic blue.

Day 3-Saturday

Not much done, just epoxied piston straps to fore and aft CPR units.

Also, my mom's HV Arcas is nearing completion. Just have to assemble coupler and add pieces of tubing to fin can. Who knows when she'll get around to that?

Couldn't get much done because my family and I went up the NYC to see ground zero for the afternoon.

Day 4-Sunday

Also not much done (church and easter dinner).

Just added epoxy fillets to anywhere where I thought the joints could use them and filled in gap in CR between piston strap and altimeter tube.

Day 5-Monday

So far I haven't gotten much done today. I don't think I be able to do much. I might get the altimeter assemblies epoxied into the airframes. BTW, the aft recovery airframe is only 17" long. Subtract room for fin can coupler, 3.5", subtract room for aft CPR unit, 7.5", subtract room for piston, at least 4.5", and the room for the drogue and tubular nylon is only 1.5". That's crazy, I hope PML knows what their doing.

I did manage to take pics with a real camera of T&L, the painted Legacy, the unfinished HV Arcas, and the construction of Eclipse. Once I use up a whole roll of film then I will get it developed and have Phil post the pics (thanks buddy). I probably won't have the pics until the weekend though.

Update for Monday-
Although I was running around like a chicken with my head chopped off, trying to get ready for school tomorrow, I did manage to get some things done with dad.

Epoxied on three of four fins
BTW- the tips of the fins at the root edge (where it contacts the airframe) where about 1/8 to 3/16 of an inch too long (foward part of root wasn't touching motor tube) and so I had to dremel and file away at the roots. The dust from G10 is nasty.
Epoxied aft altimeter/ CPR unit into aft recovery airframe
Applied epoxy fillets to all joints in airframe.

Dave

PS-Sorry to here about the incident with the coupler Phil

Dad and I didn't get too much done over the week but we did get all of the CPR stuff assembled and in place. Also, we assembled the pistons so all that is left is fin fillets, goody! Don't you just love doing fin fillets inside the airframe with a 1/4" dowel, some epoxy, and a lot of patience. HA, HA

Also, my order from PML arrived and I got my e-matches so next Sat. my father and I can fly my Thunder N' Lightning. We are going to try two stage config. first as long as I can get an H123W for the sustainer. We already have the I357T for the booster. I let you guys know what happened next Sun. and I'll get a rush on any pics I have to post (sorry, haven't developed the ones of Eclipse and stuff yet).

AHHH.....PISTON PROBLEMS......AHHH.......GOTTA CALL PML....AHHH

Yep guys, another oppertunity for PML's customer service department to shine! Upon trying to fit the aft piston into the aft recovery airframe we found that the piston was oval shaped and wouldn't fit without a lot of squeezing. So, I guess I have to wait to see what PML says to me....

PML's customer service rep monitors RMR so you could try posting your problem to his attention. Slim chanc, but you might get some feedback this evening. The message is free so you won't have lost anything.

Good luck, I'm sure they'll make it good.