AMRAAM 4 has arrived!!!

I went home for lunch to fix my server which seems to have lost connection with the internet. As I drove into my drive way, what should my wondering eyes should appear, a majorly large box; My rocket was here. (hehehe, I'm a poet and didn't know it) Anyway, I quickly took it inside and with reckless abandon tore open the box. First impressions: OH my, this is a big rocket. 3.9" belly looks so large. This will be the biggest rocket for me so far. I got the CPR3000 kit and the A4 modification. So all was bundled in the box. Impressive. I also ordered a parachute upgrade to 60" and it was also packed inside the A4. Had they packaged this kit especially for me? I was extremely excited and still am. I can't wait to get started on this. I will keep everyone updated on my progress. When I'm done, I will be posting an indepth review on EMRR.

I'm fighting the urge to blow off work the rest of the day and go get some epoxy and start building...

And when he opened the package, his belly shook like a bowl full of jelly

OMG...you really DO have it bad!!!!!

I am sitting on pins and needles myself, waiting for my PML Endeavour and TLP Harpoon...sounds like it's contageous!

Four things to check, although you have done some of them already. Make sure the Parachute is 60", your CPR3000 is for 3.9", you got the EXTENDED Kwik Switch rather than the standard and your lower body tube should be pre-cut, one piece is 16 1/2" or so(the one with the lower fin slots) and the other is about 16".

...and YES...they custom built it just for you right from the factory! that's good service!

Keep us up to date!

Carl
A4 Flier

Also, I have several pics I took during my build that can be helpful for the model and CPR3000, along with many, many, many tips during the build process.....AOL message me ANYTIME you are not sure, and especially around the time BEFORE you start on the motor mount and Kwik Switch 2000.

Cya,

Carl

And if you saw his belly you'd think he ate several bowls of jelly!

Just kidding dude. Enjoy the new toy!

Well, that hurt. Just for that you are off my Christmas card list...

OK, after taking inventory, I have noted everything is as planned. The only difference from mine and Carls is that my body tubes are longer as well as the extended motor mounts are all 18". So the problem Carl noted in his EMRR review has been solved.

Now to start getting together the building pieces...

yes.. the first big rocket to a collection is always a blast.. I remeber build'n my first big one.. enjoy man... a note to the wise.. I don't know if it comes with a launch lug or rail buttons.. but would defently suggest get'n some rail buttons for this monster... check out Matts buttons on the web.. you can't beet them... I used them on my L2 flight with great results...

Well last night I had some spare time so here is what I did...

A) I primed the nose cone using all the previously learned techniques. I'm up to 7 coats.

B) I put together the Kwik switch system.

I'm just so giddy I can't stand it. I can't wait to see what it is going to look like.

your just a nut.. and I like it.. man keep have'n fun... if you ever stop have'n fun... find a new hobby...

Originally posted by PGerringer
I'm just so giddy I can't stand it. I can't wait to see what it is going to look like.

Click to expand...

I've seen him... he's as giddy as a school boy who just got his first kiss on the playground by the cutist girl in class.

and... isn't it going to look like an AMRAAM?

I hope you guys don't mind me giving you a play by play but I'm having so much fun that I have to share....

Last night I put the CPR3000 pieces together. That was interesting and I made a complete mess as I dropped epoxy all over the place.

You can see all the pics so far at:

https://www.cybergatetech.com/Projects/Rocketry/Pictures/AMRAAM4/

I did make a mistake though, I epoxied one side of the CPR into the body tube. Well, that is what the instructions say to do. But, after it was done, I woke up... I hadn't drilled holes for the altimeter switch. CRAP!!! So, now I'm very limited as to what I can use as the switch. Oh, well.

I also think I made another mistake but I can't figure out how yet. Check this out: Somehow, I have ended up with two extra centering rings that are smaller diameter than the others. The small centering rings actually fit inside of the body tube couplers so I know they have a purpose, I just can't figure out what it is. The instructions don't suggest anything. To make things even more interesting, there is a remaining 7" coupler. Add this to the fact that when the second part of the CPR is epoxied, it will be where the slits for the canards. So the only thing the canards can be epoxied to is the centering rings which I know is wrong. But I can fix it with glass filleting. But add all that together and you get that I did something wrong. Any ideas???

So far, so fun....

ok doughboy,

Let's see if we can set Yunz' straight.

As far as your switch goes, you know my response.

Regarding the two extra centering rings, yup, they look like extras! If they are 38mm centers(1.5") then they are spares. If they are 54mm(2.1"), they may be to reinforce the Main 54mm Motor mount tube as it extends into the bulkhead. Check your instructions and see if they want you to "double" them up on the CPR...otherwise keep them as spares if they are 1.5".

Now, on my A4, the upper 28" body tube had slots at it's bottom for the center fins. It sounds like your "upper" section of the lower body tube has these slots instead. If the upper 28" body tube is indeed slotted, follow the canard fin mounting suggestions below.

Also, the "LONGER" CPR tube with the slot cut and the "threaded" blue adapter was my LOWER tube...is this the case for you? I hope so because it needs to be.

There should have been a "3rd" SPARE piston that comes with the stock kit. Use the piston tube to support the canard fins by gluing it UNDER the area of the canard fins and flush with the top centering ring of the upper CPR. Do this AFTER the CPR is completely glued in. It will give you the support you need and a nice flat surface to glue the root of the canard fins to, but you should still glass em on the outside, if I remember the instructions correctly.

DON'T forget to use the short coupler and body tube O-RING when gluing in the last part of the CPR so your spacing is correct.

As far as the spare coupler goes, again you did not brush up on my review. It IS extra and is used only with non CPR and I used it as a holder for the body tubes while painting. If you didn't get a spare piston for the above suggestion, you can cut one out of the spare coupler instead and use it to support under the canard fins...so you DO get to use it, either as a holder or for coupler/canard support material.

Carl
A4 Flier

Second senario,

If your Upper 18" section of the lower body tube is slotted for the canard fins and you haven't finished assembling it(meaning, installed the lower CPR), you can glue the forward centering ring on the CPR tube, then the threaded blue adapter, then the shock strap, then slide a piece of coupler tube on from the rear and cap it with the bottom centering ring. The coupler will be loose on the assembly until you slide it into the top of the upper section, where it also can be glued along with the lower CPR. If you have already glued in this lower CPR unit and can see the centering rings through the canard fin slots, you are stuck and will have to use the edges of the canard fin body tube slots for glue support when installing the canard fins. Fiberglass them for sure and add big fillets.

However, since you mentioned you forgot a drill hole, it sounds like the lower CPR has already been glued...which is a bummer...wish I could have talked to you before hand.

Also, before you install the canard fins, make sure you CLEAN off any glue on the centering rings under the fin slots so the fins will sit flush.

FIT everything before gluing!

Carl
A4 Flier

The first scenario is more appropriate. Here is what I have.... Lower tube is 20" and is slotted for the fins. Middle tube is 18" which now has the CPR (long tube with the slit) glued in per instructions. (so far so good) The upper tube is 28" and is slotted for the canards. I did plan on (as you suggested) using the extra 7" coupler inside the upper tube above the upper CPR centering ring to provide support for the canards. I did get an extra piston and didn't think about using it for this "opportunity". The piston would be a better choice. But, as you have indicated, even with that extra support, the canards must be glassed again for stability.

Since you are saying extra parts are OK, looks like I am fine too. I'm just limited in switch choices now. Now to go re-look at your review to see if there are any more "surprises".

Also, I am fitting before gluing. I'm just not fitting, thinking, and then gluing. I need to change my behavior.

hahaha...good one Phil...Actually, it sounds like you are doing fine. I am also enjoying your posts here, so keep up the good work and updates. Also, my Internet connection has been acting up here, but I will try to stay up on AOL IM if you need me.

Regarding the support of the canard fins, use the piston instead of the coupler; it's shorter and will give you more room for the big main parachute. Also, glue in the upper CPR per the instructions, BUT, BEFORE you assemble the upper CPR Piston, glue in the spare piston just above the top of the upper CPR with it's bottom flush against the upper CPR centering ring. Otherwise, you cannot get this "spacer/support piston" over top the upper piston and you would have to slot it vertically, then slide it over the black 3/4" cord. It's better to not have to slot it vertically, so glue the support piston in BEFORE you build the upper piston. I know I repeated this twice in the above sentences, but wanted to make sure you got it and I hope you get this message before you build tonite.

Once finished, the bottom of the upper main piston can be built, then it should slide down the long tube and the bottom will rest on the top of your installed support piston. Make sure you SAND the tube and support piston before you epoxy it in for good glue purchase. Another advantage of installing the support piston is that it gives the main piston a good stopping point; without it, you could insert the main upper piston too far and it could bind on the glue that is holding on the Carnard fins and prevent main chute ejection. Always think'in!

Cya Bro,

Carl

Will do, oh Jedi Master. Actually my wife is using the AIM computer so I will probably not be on. But I will update this site with any issue that I find. Just cause I know you care....

Last night was going to be a slow building night. I had Scout meetings so when I got home I was tired. So I decided to do some fairly simple stuff. But then I got carried away.

I spent some more time on the nose cone. I learned something recently (thanks Carl): Wet sanding does not mean wet the object and then sand the object. So the nose cone is coming out much better this time. I'm up to 7 coats of primer with about 4 sanded off. I have 2 more coats to go and then it will be perfectly primed. I think my previous problems with the paint comes from the amount of moisture that comes in contact with the primer. You would be amazed at how much water primer soaks up when you wash the nosecone.

I finished inserting the CPR3000. I followed the instructions and the end result was a perfect setup of the system. I'm very pleased on how it all came out although I'm still miffed about the switch. But I will get over it. I did slide the extra piston "coupler" down the upper airframe to sit on top of the CPR which provided the extra surface area for the canards. And, the piston was the perfect size as only about 1/2" extended above the slotting for the canards.

I epoxied 2 canards into the upper frame. This is only a temporary glue as I will definitely need to create a fillet using fiberglass and epoxy for structural integrity.

Tonight, I will do the last two canards and the upper piston. This is going alot faster than anticipated. I expect to be done with assembly by this time next week. Then I can spend a significant amount of time on the finishing. I'm gonna try to make Carl proud...

Man, another great report! I knew you would like the piston spacer instead of the coupler. You are moving at a good pace, so it's time for one suggestion but you're not going to like it...

Use fiberglass cloth on your center fins! I can hear you whining from here, but remember that during landing, the canard fins make good contact with the ground, while the rear section usually lands on it's tail/motor mount. I would hate to see you break them. Also, if you read the FAQ at the PML website, they have a lot of information for beefing up rockets to handle stress and glassing is one of the requirements.

Since the fins are so small, running some 2oz cloth from one inch up one fin, down and across the body tube and up one inch or so on the other fin is not a big chore and will add strength. Also, using some fiberglass mil and microbaloons in your BIG fillets with add strength and sandability. Remember, there is no such thing as overbuilding or overstrengthening when it comes to HPR. Nuf said.

Keep the updates comming bro, they are enjoyable...

Carl

After last night, fiberglassing the canards was added to my list of things to do. So, I'm not whining too bad... Thanks Bubba....

Tonight we went to the fair...

When I came home I made the second (and last) piston. I also epoxied the last 2 canards. I poured an epoxy well in the lower piston to make it stronger. I also poured an epoxy well in the middle airframe to seal the lower centering ring for the CPR.

All very interesting and fun...

Nice report Phil...short and sweet.

Sounds like the entire upper tube and nosecone is completed, minus glassing; glad you decided to glass the fins, good choice.

Follow your directions for the lower tube when mounting the main fins, motor mount and bulkhead. Since your second section of tube is longer, they may have you install the bulkhead halfway so 4 1/2" of bulkhead is sticking out of the main fin tube instead of the 3 1/2" I had, which is fine and will give you a longer, sturdier bulkhead coupler.

Enjoy bro,

Carl

Pistons - done. CPR - minus electronics. Canards - done. Lower fins - done. I still have one more well to pour and then I'm done for the day. I need to glass and fillet the fins but seeing as though I don't have any fiberglass cloth, this step will have to wait until next week. The A4 is starting to look more like a rocket and less like rocket parts...

I did make one mistake... While pouring epoxy on the upper CPR centering ring, I made a mess. I couldn't reach it so I had to pour a few feet above the centering ring. Boy did I miss the spot. Epoxy went everywhere. All over the quantum tube, down into the CPR. But with Carl's help (Thanks Carl) I was able to use denatured alchohol to clean everything up. Whew, close call.... Oh, and BTW... When I started pouring this, the epoxy was smoking (yes smoking) and I got a face full of fumes... Anyone know how many brain cells I killed??? I had a headache for 2 hours afterwards.

Still having fun...

Phil,

In regards to glassing your canards... Please contact PML and make sure that they advise this. I remeber reading something nevgative in the PML FAQ about fiberglassing Quantum Tube.

Contact Andrew Waddell [email protected]. He should be able to answer any question regarding this.

Just as a note to the strength of the PML kits:

My flying buddy has a stock built PML QT Amraam 4 that has two times fallen from 2000 ft due to (1) shreded chute and (2) undeployed chute, and neither time has the rocket sustained any damage! We, however, do fly in a hay field.. I'm sure results would have been different if we were landing on a rocky surface. The second time it fell, it bounced a good 3 feet back up into the air. QT is amazing stuff...... I like it.

Todd Moore
TRA#8650 L2
Michigan Team 1

1. Curing epoxy is a exothermic reaction, that means it will get _hot_ if mixed in large quantities (like a full cup of it). And if things get hot they start to smoke...

2. I don't think glassing quantum tube is a good idea, since the bond will be _very_ weak; epoxy cannot soak into the QT. So at the first application of stress (say landing on a canard), the glassing will simply pop off the QT. I'd guess milled glass or cotton in the fillets will help you more.

Oliver

Phil and Company,

It is true that PML recommends you not glass Quantum tube for strengthening, but the main reason for this is that the tubing is not rated for high stress applications such as Mach flight where fiberglassing is required; it is a very slick sport rocket body tube that is both flexible and forgiving. According to the PML FAQ and conversations with Andy Waddell, they are talking about covering the entire Quantum tube with glass cloth, which is something I would never do or recommend. It does shrink and expand and you would be "restricting" the Quantum tube from this function.

However, in the Amraam 4 instructions, you will note that they do highly recommend you use fiberglass strips to strengthen the canards as they are only surface mounted. I have found in the many PML kits I have built that fiberglassing in the fin area only ADDS a shield of strength whcih stands up to hard surfaces and cold weather conditions. I have had Quantum tubing shatter in the cold without glassing so I am speaking from experience. Once glassed in the fin area, they flew and landed on the hard surface without incident. I even had my PML Matrix land hard once on one rear fin only, which stuck in the ground like an axe and supported the rest of the rocket in mid air! It faired without a scratch, where I just know it would have cracked without glassing.

Also, if you follow PML's recommendations when sanding the Quantum tube for glue purchase, you might experience glass cloth seperation or even internal parts seperation, although I have also seen this happen to sanded phenolic surfaces. The 150 grit paper does not rough up the surface enough to get a good glue purchase, which is why I use 80 Grit Metal sandpaper with the cloth back. It cuts some really nice deep grooves so the epoxy can adhere well.

I currently glass ALL my PML kits using Quantum tube only in the fin areas to add strength for my cold weather/hard surface flying. In all my flights I have never had one model fail or seperate or experience any kind of problems in the glassed area! As long as you stick to fin areas only and allow the rest of the tube to expand and contract, there should not be a problem.

Best Regards,

Carl

Tired from the rocket launch I thought it best not to do anything elaborate. So I drilled the holes in the airframe for pressure stabalization. One 1/8" hole in each section including over the CPR as per instructions.

I also cut the hole for the switch. I followed the instructions and it was alot easier than I expected.

And for the final task, I sanded and primed the nosecone again. I lost count at the 9th coat. but now the nosecone has no visible flaws and it is ready for the final sanding and color coat...

Still having fun...

Slow night tonight... I had Cub Scout meetings tonight so I didn't do that much. However here is an update:

As you may know, the Kwik-Switch is a marvelous invention but for the kit they sent me, the 38 and 29mm tubes were a bit longer than the mother (54mm) tube. So I inserted the 38mm and marked where it should be cut. I didn't worry about the 29mm cause I never expect to use it. I put a hose clamp on the open end of the tube as a guide and used a craft saw (I don't know what you call it) to cut the tube. Surprisingly it came out real good. I now have to sand it down.

For the first time ever, I tried glassing a canard... The idea was to take a piece of 2 oz fiberglass cloth and epoxy 1/2" on the fin and 1/2" on the body tube. So, I sanded both surfaces, applied the epoxy and then the cloth. First impression, this isn't as easy as I thought. But the first three went on just fine but the fourth one gunked up. I managed to get it pressed out, but it looks like heck. That took alot out of me so I decided to stop with that for the time being. On to the fillets... After the glassing had sufficiently cured, I covered them with fillets mixed with microballoons. So, end result, 4 joints on the canards are done.

Then I went to bed....

Tonight, since Milo and I are going to try to get the Mirage out of the tree, I may not be able to do that much to the rocket. Anticipate pictures of our Search And Rescue operation.

Phil,

Another good report. Regarding your glassing, are you mixing one batch then doing all four sides? It sounds like you are and the Epoxy is starting to cure before you finish. I mix a seperate batch for each fin side and it never gunks up.

Also, drill two more holes for your altimeter area; one 1/8" hole is not enough for the volume. you should have 3 holes, one between each fin in the center, except for the side that will contain your launch lugs.

Also, read my review again before doing the launch lugs. The CPR must be assembled with all o-rings and upper altimeter mount installed, tightened and FINS ALIGNED before doing the upper lug.

Carl

Yessir, I'm mixing epoxy and doing 4 joins. I will mix for two next time.

Launch lug noted...

About the holes. I drilled one hole in the middle section which is on the other side of the switch, this is for the altimeter. Drilled one hole in the middle section for the airframe on the same side as the other hole. Then one hole in the top section towards the top. But ya know? That brings up a question. The directions explained where to put them and that is where I did. But it seems to me that there would have to be holes on both sides of the piston. Which area is most important to equalize the air pressure? The ejection side of the piston or the chutte side?