Aerotech vs. Cesaroni

[Marsman]

I'm looking to get into higher power at the 38mm diameter. When shopping for my first case(s) to buy, I seem to be on the fence between Pro-x and Aerotech. My question to you is, how do the propellants compare? Which one has more smoke/fire/noise? All anyone flies around here is Aerotech, as the dealer only carries them. But, with the lifting of the BAFTE ban, buying motors on the internet became much more attractive.

My experience so far is with the Aerotech 40/120 case, predominantly with G64s.

On one hand, there is the Skidmark motor which is just awesome from videos. On the other, the new long burn I motors from Aerotech really interest me, as I'm a fan of realistic long burn flights.

So, please compare, contrast, and debate!

White Lightning versus Classic/White Thunder
Redline vs. Red lightning
Blackjack vs. Smokey Sam
Blue Thunder vs. Blue Streak
Warp 9 vs. Vmax

How do they stack up?

[jj94]

Honestly, I think it's a choice of personal preference, so you can't really let us "choose" the best for you. I'd try out both and go with whichever one you like best; better yet, use both. I haven't flown Cesaroni yet, but from what I know, I know that the motors are much more user friendly when motor prep, ignition, and cleanup is taken into account. Their SS propellant is a lot smokier than AT's Black Jack and is a bit faster. Aerotech's Warp 9 is the fastest propellant of them all and beats VMax hands down when looking for performance. Other than that, I can't really tell you much more. Both companies have their own unique traits, propellants, and motors. I'm looking into getting some Pro29, now that they're starting to roll out of the factory, and am looking forward to enjoying the best of both worlds.

[mikec]

White Lightning versus Classic/White Thunder

I'm a big fan of WL visually, and Classic has much less flame than WL. WT is not very equivalent to WL since it typically has considerably higher average thrust -- compare the CTI I540 to the AT I284 (I'm not sure what WT looks like, haven't flown one yet.)

The nice thing about CTI 38mm is that you only have to buy one case and no other hardware, so it's not as much of an investment. Try both and see which you like better (especially if you can borrow AT hardware.) You have to have the CTI hardware to fly the Skidmarks anyway and they are really cool :)

[als57]

The CTI G69 skid is quite impressive from personal experiance. Flew one in my Little Dog and guys were at the vendor buying reloads before the rocket hit the ground.

Still waiting for bigger skids (38mm).

Always liked the smokey sam reloads as well.

As the others have stated its pretty much personal choice. I use both AT and CTI. Both are reliable and effective. The CTI is simpler to assemble and the hardware is cheaper. CTI reload prices are somewhat higher.


Al

[cjl]

OK, here's my opinion on the topic:

For white, there's nothing like a white lightning. Classic and white thunder, while not bad in their own right, really cannot compare. On a similar note, Aerotech has the better red, IMHO. On the other hand, I really like CTIs Blue Streak - Aerotech's Blue Thunder gives a better kick, but the Blue Streak is a nice, slower burning blue with more flame and color in the smaller sizes. For your final comparison, Warp 9 is my favorite. It is quite a bit faster than Vmax, although there is the small issue of having to use electronics whenever you are flying a W9 load. Honestly though, both have nice loads, and I will happily fly either one, depending on which ones the local motor vendor happens to have at hand at the launch. You really can't go wrong with either of them (and yes, skids are awesome :D)

[MarkII]

CTI Pro-38 and Pro-54 reloads are actually more like single use motors without the external case. I haven't seen the Pro-29's yet, but I assume that they have the same basic design. The CTI motor hardware is really nothing more than a threaded metal sleeve that is tapered at the forward end. The reload comes preassembled in a plastic case, with the forward and rear enclosures installed; these enclosures are disposed of with the spent reload. The delay is in its own plastic case that just snaps onto the forward end of the propellant case. You take it off to drill out your desired delay and then snap it back on. The reloads all come with the maximum delay, which you must drill out with CTI's DAT tool to get your desired delay. The delay unit also contains the ejection charge (in reloads that have one) already packed in. Then you just screw the reload into the metal sleeve and install it into your rocket. There is a thrust ring incorporated into the nozzle end of the reload. Since the reload is a self-contained unit, there is nothing to grease beforehand and nothing to clean up afterward. You just unscrew the spent reload and toss it out. The only thing that you save is the metal sleeve.

I have not seen any Pro-75 or Pro-98 reloads, but I understand that they require slightly more assembly because they are designed to be capable of being loaded into hardware from Animal Motor Works and Aerotech.

Because of the preassembly into their own disposable containment sleeves, CTI reloads in the smaller sizes and impulse have prices that are comparable to the prices of Aerotech single use motors of similar impulse.

With Aerotech RMS motors, you pay more for the hardware, which includes fore and aft enclosures, and you pay less for the reload kits. The costlier Aerotech reloadable motor is a one-time expense, though, while the costlier CTI reloads are a recurring expense. Aerotech offers reloads in a much wider variety of impulses and propellant types in the 38mm size than CTI does, but Cesaroni is starting to leverage its acquisition of AMW in order to offer more variety in its Pro-38 line now, too. But they still have some distance to go before they catch up, and in the meantime, Aerotech is not exactly standing still. ;)

MarkII

[cjl]

Pro29 are similar to Pro54 in assembly - they use a metal aft closure rather than the integrated closure like the Pro38, but they are still quite easy to assemble and use. The loads are definitely on the expensive side though, especially the small ones. IIRC, the F loads (29-1g) are >$15.

[MarkII]

When you buy any of CTI's smaller reloads, you are essentially buying 4/5's (or more) of a completely assembled motor, and the price reflects that. As I understand it, there is really no way for CTI to bring that price down any further while still retaining their design strategy. Cesaroni's reloads are very convenient, in the same way that Aerotech's (or RoadRunner's) SU motors are convenient, and as in the case with SU motors, you pay for the convenience of not having to assemble (most of) the motor yourself. In terms of price, you really can't compare CTI's small reloads to Aerotech's RMS reloads; you really have to compare them to the prices of AT's mid-power single use motors.

MarkII

[cjl]

Very true, but cost is more of a factor for me with F and G loads than with larger ones. CTI's J motors are only a bit more expensive than the comparable aerotech ones, but their Fs are 1.5x or more. They do make a nice G skid though...

[troj]

Providing a different perspective on all of this...

If you have a vendor who's coming to your launches, I'd encourage you to buy from that vendor. They're the ones supporting the local club and local launches.

Does this mean that mailordering things is bad? No. But if it were me, as much as possible, I'd be buying from the person who shows up at the launches.

We have a vendor who makes a several hundred mile trip to come see us three times a year. Needless to say, that's where most of the money of many of us goes.

-Kevin

PS: AeroTech and Cesaroni both make very good products. Different philosophies, different approaches, but the products are both good.

[mparker59]

Providing a different perspective on all of this...

If you have a vendor who's coming to your launches, I'd encourage you to buy from that vendor. They're the ones supporting the local club and local launches.

Does this mean that mailordering things is bad? No. But if it were me, as much as possible, I'd be buying from the person who shows up at the launches.

We have a vendor who makes a several hundred mile trip to come see us three times a year. Needless to say, that's where most of the money of many of us goes.

-Kevin

PS: AeroTech and Cesaroni both make very good products. Different philosophies, different approaches, but the products are both good.

Kevin, you could not be more right about this. Most clubs couldn't exist without their on-site vendor. We should be willing to pay a bit more to keep that support in place. More often than not, the shipping cost more than makes up any difference in price. If not and you really care, discuss it with your on-site vendor - most would sooner give you a discount than see you go to a mail-order competitor. And, when you do need stuff mail order, check to see if your on-site vendor also operates a web store - mine does.

I'm not a vendor, never have been. But I would not have been able to have the great fun I've had in Rocketry without the support of Andy Woerner before and Jack Garibaldi now. My on-site vendor shows tremendous loyalty to the hobby - we can show loyalty to him.

Unfortunately, this doesn't solve the original problem - Jack sells both Cesaroni and Aerotech....

Mike Parker

P.S. - As a TARC mentor this year I had the great pleasure of meeting Bobby B at TARC Nationals. I hope the people that attend launches that he supports (upstate New York?) return the favor by supporting him back as he is a real asset to the hobby.

[jadebox]

Cesaroni's reloads are very convenient, in the same way that Aerotech's (or RoadRunner's) SU motors are convenient, and as in the case with SU motors, you pay for the convenience of not having to assemble (most of) the motor yourself.

And not having to clean up as much! With CTI motors, there really is no cleaning involved after the flight.

I love how easy CTI motors are to use. I also like how quickly they ignite every time.

I love the flame from Aerotech's White Lightning motors.



http://www.payloadbay.com/gallery/d/17889-2/2007-08-11-09-47-36_4.jpg (http://www.payloadbay.com/article-building-akavish---the-spider-rocket.html)


That's an Aerotech I-284 in our "Big Daddy Akavish." The rocket is about four-foot tall, so you can see that the flame is about four-feet long and more than a foot across at the widest point.

For most launches with large motors, however, I usually use either Gorilla Rocket Motors or Animal Motor Works motors. They are less expensive and just as reliable at Aerotech and CTI.

I have recently, though, bought several of the new CTI reloads that fit AMW cases. These are a little more expensive than AMW reloads, but have the features of CTI motors including the quick ignition.

So ... my conclusion is buy motors from all the manufacturers. :-)

-- Roger

[AKPilot]

I'm with Troj on this one. Support the local vendor as much as possible.

I've chosen AT because of availability. The only desire I have with AT is I'd wish there'd be a 29mm sparky available.

[VARocketflyer]

CTI Pro-38 and Pro-54 reloads are actually more like single use motors without the external case. I haven't seen the Pro-29's yet, but I assume that they have the same basic design. The CTI motor hardware is really nothing more than a threaded metal sleeve that is tapered at the forward end. The reload comes preassembled in a plastic case, with the forward and rear enclosures installed; these enclosures are disposed of with the spent reload. The delay is in its own plastic case that just snaps onto the forward end of the propellant case. You take it off to drill out your desired delay and then snap it back on. The reloads all come with the maximum delay, which you must drill out with CTI's DAT tool to get your desired delay. The delay unit also contains the ejection charge (in reloads that have one) already packed in. Then you just screw the reload into the metal sleeve and install it into your rocket. There is a thrust ring incorporated into the nozzle end of the reload. Since the reload is a self-contained unit, there is nothing to grease beforehand and nothing to clean up afterward. You just unscrew the spent reload and toss it out. The only thing that you save is the metal sleeve.

I have not seen any Pro-75 or Pro-98 reloads, but I understand that they require slightly more assembly because they are designed to be capable of being loaded into hardware from Animal Motor Works and Aerotech.

Because of the preassembly into their own disposable containment sleeves, CTI reloads in the smaller sizes and impulse have prices that are comparable to the prices of Aerotech single use motors of similar impulse.

With Aerotech RMS motors, you pay more for the hardware, which includes fore and aft enclosures, and you pay less for the reload kits. The costlier Aerotech reloadable motor is a one-time expense, though, while the costlier CTI reloads are a recurring expense. Aerotech offers reloads in a much wider variety of impulses and propellant types in the 38mm size than CTI does, but Cesaroni is starting to leverage its acquisition of AMW in order to offer more variety in its Pro-38 line now, too. But they still have some distance to go before they catch up, and in the meantime, Aerotech is not exactly standing still. ;)

MarkII

I agree with most of the points stated above, but I would like to clear up a few things.

The post above states "Aerotech offers reloads in a much wider variety of impulses and propellant types in the 38mm size than CTI does, but Cesaroni is starting to leverage its acquisition of AMW in order to offer more variety in its Pro-38 line now, too. But they still have some distance to go before they catch up":



Aerotech has (7) 38mm RMS case sizes currently offering 36 loads ranging in impulse from 109Ns - 975Ns. This includes the 2 new long burn 38s which are now certified and should be available in 3-4 wks according to their press release. Aerotech offers reloads in 7 propellant types.

Cesaroni offers Pro38 cases in 7 sizes with 45 loads ranging from 121Ns - 1115Ns. It is my understanding that these loads are on their way to dealers now. Cesaroni offers reloads in 7 propellant types.

I will agree that for some years after the introduction of Pro38s the statements in quotations above were the case, but those days are now over.

Mark

[n3tjm]

I do like Aerotech's white better than CTI's, but I am a bigger fan of CTI. There is a lot less chance of failure with CTI loads, user and manufacture errors. CTI's delays are MUCH more accurate compaired to aerotechs, which is one of the big reasons I am happy the Pro29's are available now. $15 for a F motor is not to bad concidering the Pro29 loads are more like disposable motors than a reload, and a disposable F motor starts at $15 anyway.

[C.O.B.H.C.]

Read signature.

[cjl]

Of course, all that says is that you haven't tried one of the new Pro38 skids...

(The new Imax is quite nice too)

[Handeman]

I agree with the idea of buying from the local vendor. Buy what ever type he's selling. If you want a certain brand, talk to him, he may start to carry it.

When you buy from the local vendor, the price may be a little higher, but if you're only buying a few HPR motors at a time instead of ordering $1000.00+ at a time, the hazmat and shipping fees can eat up any discount the on-line sellers offer. The thing about supporting the local vendor is that he will keep coming to the launches. That means when you decide to try the bigger motor and need that next larger case, he'll be there. When you need a couple of rail buttons, some shock cord, new body tube and nose cone to fix the last core sample, or any of the hundred of other bits and pieces you may need at some time, he'll be there.

As it has been mentioned, most of the local vendors that show up, also sell on the web. I've been able to order things on-line and arrange pickup at the launch site. That gives you the best of both worlds, website pricing and NO shipping at all.

[dave carver]

I, myself, can't wait for Frank Kosdon to ramp up production now that regulatory problems have been resolved. His Fast Fuel is by far my favorite although I have the complete 29 and 38 mm sets of AT's. And being that AMW motors are derived from Frank's line there is the capability of using AMW loads in a Kosdon case.

My friends, we're entering a Golden Age of rocketry, everything is truly going up from here on:cyclops:

[ben_ullman]

let me settle this

GO SNAP RING!! Then you can do EX later ;)

Ben

[Locum51]

I'm stuck between AT (38mm) and CTI (38mm) as well. Which would be better for a person switching from MPR to HPR, like ease of use, cleaning, etc.

[cjl]

let me settle this

GO SNAP RING!! Then you can do EX later ;)

Ben

Of course, snap ring motors are more of a pain than either AT or CTI, IMHO.

(I have to say, I really like the new AMW loads by CTI)

[ben_ullman]

Of course, snap ring motors are more of a pain than either AT or CTI, IMHO.

(I have to say, I really like the new AMW loads by CTI)

must be user error :roll:

I must admit for ease of assembly CTI has it but you can do so much with snap rings. Plus they are cheap/easy to make. 3 grooves in a tube and you have a case.

Ben

[Bill P]

Of course, snap ring motors are more of a pain than either AT or CTI, IMHO.

(I have to say, I really like the new AMW loads by CTI)

With a proper pair of snap ring pliers they are a breeze to work with.

Pliers are not a place to scrimp on money.

[MarkM]

Of course, snap ring motors are more of a pain than either AT or CTI, IMHO.

True, CTI are the easiest loading motors available in the 29, 38, & 54 sizes. No question. And with a broader range of propellant types they are becoming a much better alternative than they were when I first got into the hobby about 4 years ago.

However, I totally disagree that snap ring motors are more a pain than AT loads. Compare the number of parts....snap ring motors use fewer and it's IMPOSSIBLE to confuse which O-ring goes in which location. How many AT motors have gone BOOM because of mixed up O-rings? Despite assembling dozens of AT motors, I typically need to read the directions each time. Not so with a snap ring motors. I can put together a snap ring motor in half the time of an AT motor.

[cjl]

With a proper pair of snap ring pliers they are a breeze to work with.

Pliers are not a place to scrimp on money.

I definitely agree there, but even with a pair of good pliers (which I do have), I still prefer AT and CTI. I know a lot of people disagree there, but it's just a personal preference

(You're one to be talking about user error, ben... :p)

[ben_ullman]

I definitely agree there, but even with a pair of good pliers (which I do have), I still prefer AT and CTI. I know a lot of people disagree there, but it's just a personal preference

(You're one to be talking about user error, ben... :p)

Ive had on AT load go boom due to Orings and (3 K1275's bubble/burn the case due to poor heat seal design) never had a single (EX or commercial) motor blow up. I am 100% successfull with snap rings motors. That being said I did have ONE motor let go at the top of the snap ring groove because the case was heat stressed. a 3 grain 76mm.

Ben

[Chrisn]

3 grooves in a tube and you have a case.

Ben

Ive never seen one of those before. I must get one of those, where can I get one of those?

[cjl]

Ive had on AT load go boom due to Orings and (3 K1275's bubble/burn the case due to poor heat seal design) never had a single (EX or commercial) motor blow up. I am 100% successfull with snap rings motors. That being said I did have ONE motor let go at the top of the snap ring groove because the case was heat stressed. a 3 grain 76mm.

Ben

I've never had any HPR load fail on me. I have however spent 2 weeks chipping the liner out of an AMW K555 after I flew it (and yes, I greased the liner).

[astrowolf67]

Since your local dealer carries only AT motors, I'd start there. Then later on, you could pick up some CTI cases and loads.

Hypothetically speaking, let's say you have a set of CTI Pro 38 cases, and a good supply of I's, and, J's. You have no G or H motors, and your last motor order has yet to arrive. The rocket you plan to fly can handle G through J's easily (a PML Callisto for example). You show up to the launch, and, there's a good breeze blowing, enough to prevent safe recovery with an I or J flight. Since you have Pro 38 cases, and your on site vendor only carries AT loads, your rocket will be grounded. However, if you had AT cases, you could walk over to Joe Vendor, purchase a H, or G, and fly.

David

[ben_ullman]

I've never had any HPR load fail on me. I have however spent 2 weeks chipping the liner out of an AMW K555 after I flew it (and yes, I greased the liner).

Thats cause you DID grease the liner. No liners are greased here!! I have NEVER had an issue getting one out.

Ben

[Locum51]

Since your local dealer carries only AT motors, I'd start there. Then later on, you could pick up some CTI cases and loads.

Hypothetically speaking, let's say you have a set of CTI Pro 38 cases, and a good supply of I's, and, J's. You have no G or H motors, and your last motor order has yet to arrive. The rocket you plan to fly can handle G through J's easily (a PML Callisto for example). You show up to the launch, and, there's a good breeze blowing, enough to prevent safe recovery with an I or J flight. Since you have Pro 38 cases, and your on site vendor only carries AT loads, your rocket will be grounded. However, if you had AT cases, you could walk over to Joe Vendor, purchase a H, or G, and fly.

David

True, since Wildman is the closest vendor to me. This would be the best decision, i'm guessing...

[sylvie369]

True, since Wildman is the closest vendor to me. This would be the best decision, i'm guessing...

Tim has a good selection of both AT and Cesaroni in the 38mm sizes.

[Locum51]

Tim has a good selection of both AT and Cesaroni in the 38mm sizes.

That's good to know. I think the CTI cases are going to be a little more user friendly.

[sylvie369]

I personally generally fly Aerotech, but if I've still got a rocket to fly with a 38mm mount and the weather is good at the end of the day, it's nice to go over and pick up a Cesaroni, throw it together, and fly one more time. It'd take a little longer to do that with an AT motor.

Re. ease of use and user error: I've had exactly one failure of an AT reload, and it was the second one I ever put together, so it was probably user error. But they're just not that difficult to do right. I've flown maybe 150 of them, from 24mm to 54mm since then without a problem of any sort, and it's not because I'm some kind of super-genius motor builder. True, I rarely use motor ejection in HPR, so things like "bonus delay" don't matter to me. But the things generally do work well.

The Cesaroni "instant-on" is nice, but AT motors generally do light just fine.

[MaxQ]

I, myself, can't wait for Frank Kosdon to ramp up production now that regulatory problems have been resolved. His Fast Fuel is by far my favorite although I have the complete 29 and 38 mm sets of AT's. And being that AMW motors are derived from Frank's line there is the capability of using AMW loads in a Kosdon case.

My friends, we're entering a Golden Age of rocketry, everything is truly going up from here on:cyclops:

Yep. Me too.

Next:
Rocketflite "Silver Streaks".

[JDcluster]

Not quite;
Most of the flavors that AMW/ Kosdon East had were Pauls.
Dr Frank never did colors.
AMW nozzles & bulkheads are different than Kosdon.
Kosdon never did 3" or 76/75 mm either....

We'll just have to wait & see on that.



JD


I, myself, can't wait for Frank Kosdon to ramp up production now that regulatory problems have been resolved. His Fast Fuel is by far my favorite although I have the complete 29 and 38 mm sets of AT's. And being that AMW motors are derived from Frank's line there is the capability of using AMW loads in a Kosdon case.

My friends, we're entering a Golden Age of rocketry, everything is truly going up from here on:cyclops:

[Art Upton]

I've never had any HPR load fail on me. I have however spent 2 weeks chipping the liner out of an AMW K555 after I flew it (and yes, I greased the liner).

Loki tells you to not grease a paper liner. Grease is why the liners get stuck.

Fade to black rocket works can make you a motor liner removal tool. Or you can buy Square steel and cut an angle cut in one end. Use a mallet to slice the liner al the way down. Do on two or three side and the liner falls out.

[MarkII]

I'm with Troj on this one. Support the local vendor as much as possible....
No local vendors here, though. ASTRE's launches are way too small to be worth it for anyone to sell on-site (especially since our two fields can handle maximums of an F and a G, respectively). Would a vendor come out and set up to sell mostly low-power motors and the occasional mid-power motor at a launch that can expect a total attendance of 8-12 people (on a good day)? That's just the reality in my area. I have never been to a launch that had an on-site vendor, of motors or of anything else! The biggest launch that I have ever attended (3 years ago, in fact) had a total attendance of 12 people.

MarkII

[MarkII]

I'm stuck between AT (38mm) and CTI (38mm) as well. Which would be better for a person switching from MPR to HPR, like ease of use, cleaning, etc.
If you are new to reloadables as well, then getting a CTI Pro38 1-grain case and reload is a good way to get started with a minimal investment of equipment and training. Assembly is, as others have mentioned, a no-brainer. (This is what I did, BTW.) Personally, I think that both companies offer great lines of motors. My stock of AT reloads and RMS motors is much larger than my stock of CTI motors and reloads. For someone like me who flies low- and mid-power, and who is not Level 1 certified, Aerotech has much more to offer. Even with the addition of their new Pro29 line, CTI still only offers a total of three F reloads and two G reloads that one can buy without having HP certification. For the longest time, though, there was only one CTI reload that I could buy.

Little anecdote: CTI greatly helps with the quick ignition of their reloads by inserting a pyrodex pellet at the top of the propellant grains. I flew my first reload ever at the end of the day at a club launch, right before we took down the range. There was no one there but me and the LCO. I loaded my Cinco saucer with a Pro38 1-grain (G39 Classic), put it on the pad and stood back to take a picture of the launch. It was real quiet - all you could hear were the crickets, and the LCO giving the 5-second countdown. When he hit the launch button, I nearly dropped the camera! The sound of the pyrodex pellet igniting was like a pistol shot at very close range! :eyepop: The attached photo is the only picture that I got. :o

MarkII

[MarkII]

let me settle this

GO SNAP RING!! Then you can do EX later ;)

Ben
There are plenty of us (the majority, in fact) who have no interest in ever mixing our own propellants and casting our own grains, though. You make it sound like getting into EX is something that is inevitable, but I can assure you that for the vast majority of us, it is not.

If someone wants to get into EX at some point down the road, then buying new cases for it will be the least of his or her expenses! ;)

MarkII

[bobkrech]

MarkII

Anthony Cesaroni posted several times on TRF 1 that the starter pellet in Pro38 motors is BP, not Pyrodex(R).

Bob

[JoeG]

As I look through my motors I see a lot more Aerotech than CTI. A lot.

Availability is a major factor. Back in the old days (three months ago) I had to fly what the local vendors had since I have no LEUP.

Availability also has to do with longevity. I have been able to get Aerotech motors ever since I have been flying mid/high power (Other than the plant burning down). Other manufacturers have seemed to come and go or have problems with manufacturing/licensing but Gary seems to have all his ducks in a row. I know there are other manufacturers out there who will be around for a long time and I may buy others' cases as time and money allow.

I am an Aerotech hobby line dealer (even though they haven't listed my shop yet after sending in the papers. Are you there Gary?) so that may cloud my choice but I have less difficulty getting some of the mid power motors than some of the Quest or Estes motors sometimes. I still buy my high power motors through the same sources as everyone else.

I do think a 38mm cluster is easier to light successfully with the CTI motors. Not better just easier.

[cjl]

Thats cause you DID grease the liner. No liners are greased here!! I have NEVER had an issue getting one out.

Ben

I always grease them, and I never had a problem other than the K555 (and yes, that includes Loki, which I have greased and which work fine). I think I'll keep doing what works for me, especially as I am not likely to be flying another AMW snap ring load now that they are available for CTI cases :)

[Donaldsrockets]

I mostly fly AT as I have a slew of AT hardware.

I have virtually all the 29mm HPR hardware except the 120 and 360 cases and I have all the 38mm hardware except the 1080 case.

I personally like assembling the AT motors and I don't really mind the cleanup either and with the AT loads, I don't have to clean a nozzle.

As for the Pro38 Skids, those I REALLY want to fly, if only I could get past Mr. Anti-Sparky.:D

Sorry Harold, couldn't help myself!!!:D

[Garoq]

As I look through my motors I see a lot more Aerotech than CTI. A lot.

Availability is a major factor. Back in the old days (three months ago) I had to fly what the local vendors had since I have no LEUP.

Availability also has to do with longevity. I have been able to get Aerotech motors ever since I have been flying mid/high power (Other than the plant burning down). Other manufacturers have seemed to come and go or have problems with manufacturing/licensing but Gary seems to have all his ducks in a row. I know there are other manufacturers out there who will be around for a long time and I may buy others' cases as time and money allow.

I am an Aerotech hobby line dealer (even though they haven't listed my shop yet after sending in the papers. Are you there Gary?) so that may cloud my choice but I have less difficulty getting some of the mid power motors than some of the Quest or Estes motors sometimes. I still buy my high power motors through the same sources as everyone else.

I do think a 38mm cluster is easier to light successfully with the CTI motors. Not better just easier.

Joe,

PM me your contact info and I'll get you listed right away. I have some other edits to do there as well.

[MarkII]

MarkII

Anthony Cesaroni posted several times on TRF 1 that the starter pellet in Pro38 motors is BP, not Pyrodex(R).

Bob
I stand corrected. Whatever it was, it sure went "BOOM!" when it lit! When the motor got a start, so did I. <chuckle>

MarkII

[WILDMANRS]

They all have thier pros and cons
It all depends on whats your preferance
cost per reload ?
cost of hardware ?
ease of use ?
Which one is more important ?
Tim

[Garoq]

They all have thier pros and cons
It all depends on whats your preferance
cost per reload ?
cost of hardware ?
ease of use ?
Which one is more important ?
Tim
And...
Sound
Color
Performance
Availability
Reliability
Reload versatility
Hardware options
Interface capability

[butalane]

Ive had on AT load go boom due to Orings and (3 K1275's bubble/burn the case due to poor heat seal design) never had a single (EX or commercial) motor blow up. I am 100% successfull with snap rings motors. That being said I did have ONE motor let go at the top of the snap ring groove because the case was heat stressed. a 3 grain 76mm.

Ben

How did you know the case was "heat stressed?"

[n3tjm]

I always grease them, and I never had a problem other than the K555 (and yes, that includes Loki, which I have greased and which work fine). I think I'll keep doing what works for me, especially as I am not likely to be flying another AMW snap ring load now that they are available for CTI cases :)

I never grease the liner, and don't have problems getting them out. Sometmes you need a dowl and give it a good knock and it'll come right out.

Only time I ever had a problem getting a liner out was when someone else assembled the motor for me... and they greased the liner. Plyers and knife to scrape and pry a small piece out at a time.

Only place I put grease on my motors is on the nozzle and fwd bulkhead o-rings, a little around the wall of the delay well, and a little on the o-ring that goes around the delay element (no grease if the o-ring come in contact with the ejection charge).

[JoeG]

Joe,

PM me your contact info and I'll get you listed right away. I have some other edits to do there as well.

WOW!! Thanks Gary. That was fast. I'm listed on Aerotech's website AND I'm in the phone book!!

Joe :cool:

[rdmmdr]

Gary's service is great and his support of the launches over the years has been exceptional. I think the count is up to five demo motors so far, so about one a year. They normally show at our big launches, what happen to dairy aire this year gary ? And i have seen them warrenty a cato on the spot.

But as for this whole thing about cti vrs rms assembly times. A small motor up to a j it is two minutes max. A larger motor when you have to glue grains and the such it takes longer. And most high power guys launch only two or three times a day. i spent a lot longer looking for them then i do building motors. I have had one liner burn through that damaged a casing that i won't use anymore. i figure that in over a hundred rms launches that is not too bad of a record.

cti claim to fame is ease of loading. Yes a cti motor is easy to load by the time you get the package open without damaging it you have spent about a minute, call it a minute less then a rms. But since there was a 20% price difference between cti and rms i decided to go rms after my first cti purchase. I still have a five grain cti case if anyone is interested.

cti motors cato too. been there done that got the tee shirt.
gary has supported this community for alot of years and as a result i will continue to support him.

[Chrisn]

What kind of rocketeer doesnt like putting stuff together? Ones who dont buy kits thats who. Arguing over Aerotech and CTI is like Windows vs Linux.

[rdmmdr]

Chrisn

it is more like aluminium or aluminum. so if you spell it with the extra i, doe's that mean you are cti or aerotech.

lenux= aerotech, windows= cato, mac =cti

[Chrisn]

Chrisn

it is more like aluminium or aluminum. so if you spell it with the extra i, doe's that mean you are cti or aerotech.

lenux= aerotech, windows= cato, mac =cti

Ill spell it/say it the same way all the elements below Aluminium on group 13 are

[MarkII]

Aerotech vs. Cesaroni Technologies -- why must I choose? :confused: Why can't I have both? :confused2: That's really what I want. :D

MarkII

[Marsman]

Aerotech vs. Cesaroni Technologies -- why must I choose? :confused: Why can't I have both? :confused2: That's really what I want. :D

MarkII

Well said! My thoughts exactly.

[Pantherjon]

AT, CTI, Loki, Gorilla, AMW, soon to be re-released Kosden..Shoot, I want 'em all!:roll:

Variety is the 'spice of life'! ;)

[kelltym88]

Different motors do different things depending on what you're looking for. Speed, strength, color. All based on how your rocket is built and so on.

I love AT redline motors, and mojave greens. Honestly, I really wasn't into CTI or Animal 'cause they weren't here in California.(Animal wasn't until recently, but CTI has been) But they are now, and having flown a skid recently, I plan on flying many, many more.

I always bring my AT catalog to a launch so I can see what motors will work best. Does AMW have a catalog? I could sure use one.


Here is an example of AT Black max motors: 1 J401 FJ and 2 G53FJ:

Photo by Mark Canepa

[kelltym88]

Here is a link to that same rocket on an AT J460 Blue Thunder and 2 G77 Redlines. It so happens that all motors used were AT. I would like to see what she does on 3 sparkys.

http://www.rocketryforumarchive.com/showthread.php?t=34685&highlight=manta+bomber&page=5

Post #89

Photo by Tim Sapp

[TD Sky]

They all have their pros and cons
It all depends on whats your preference
cost per reload ?
cost of hardware ?
ease of use ?
Which one is more important ?
Tim


And...
Sound
Color
Performance
Availability
Reliability
Reload versatility
Hardware options
Interface capability

All true...What would be really nice is a dealer who had up-to-date web listings of the reloads they actually had on their shelf. Everyone has favorite reloads, no matter the brand. I do not have time to play phone tag or email tag with various vendors looking for a particular reload.

[Schuyler]

Any opinions on LOKI motors? I need to choose something for my Lvl 1 cert for next month and they seem to have good prices.

[cjl]

They aren't bad. I haven't flown many due to the fact that they have only recently become available at our local launches, but they do seem to be nice products.

[ben_ullman]

LOKI is good stuff, the owner leaves something to be desired.

Ben

P.S. contact me off forum for more info into that comment

[troj]

All true...What would be really nice is a dealer who had up-to-date web listings of the reloads they actually had on their shelf. Everyone has favorite reloads, no matter the brand. I do not have time to play phone tag or email tag with various vendors looking for a particular reload.

That's a great idea, in theory, but in practice, it's problematic.

Using our buddy Tim Lehr of Wildman as an example...

Providing current information requires that as product is sold, it's updating a database somewhere, which the website uses to produce availability information. That means a constant feed.

Now, Tim uses a computer as his cash register, which makes it theoretically possible. Except for the fact that his cash register goes to launches with him, and without an (expensive) cellular connection, he cannot keep that information current.

In addition, most affordable small business POS (point of sale) software is proprietary, and won't have the necessary hooks to provide such a feed.

Even exporting the data on a daily basis can be difficult, and would require custom development to convert whatever format the software can produce (if any) to the format the web site needs.

For larger retailers, the POS software is still often proprietary, but because larger businesses require the ability to monitor sales at several stores, the ability to obtain feeds is built-in, and those same retailers have the IT staff necessary to write programs to convert it.

If the data is then made available, the website then has to be setup with the ability to utilize that information.

-Kevin

[TD Sky]

Kevin,
Yeah, I know it would be tricky, and about impossible to keep up-to-the-minute. It would be a start if it was updated at least weekly. For instance, if Vendor A has (5) I211W's on Monday, I would be confident ordering 1 or 2 on Thursday. Or if I was looking for a H123W, and the vendor has (0), I would look to see if there was another reload of that impulse and case size that the vendor had that would suffice. Not perfect, but it would reduce the phone/email tag to one brief contact. It would also help the vendor since in times of low inventory, he's not calling all his customers trying to suggest back-order times or alternatives.

[JoeG]

Different motors for different things.

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s20/joeG_album/rocket%20pics/pathfindergo.jpg

4" pathfinder on Aerotech I161W

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s20/joeG_album/upscale%20cherokee/cherokeego.jpg

5.5 inch cherokee on Pro38 J330.

Aerotech White lightning has lots more smoke even in a smaller motor (not sure if the smoke comparison is fair in comparing the propellants but that was my observation)

On the other hand, for a motor of twice the impulse the J in the Cherokee was off the pad before the launch button could be released. It was up to pressure NOW!!

I like em all!!!

[cjl]

Try some CTI White Thunder though - that's a nice propellant, with more flame and smoke than CTI Standard :D

(Admittedly, this is a bit of an unfair comparison to the 38mm stuff in the last post, since this is a Pro75 L motor)

[n3tjm]

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s20/joeG_album/upscale%20cherokee/cherokeego.jpg

5.5 inch cherokee on Pro38 J330.

!

Pro38 standard looks like BP motors. Your Cherokee looks like an upscale in every way possible :p

[JoeG]

I noticed that too. Thought maybe it was just nostalgia. :)

[Rocketcrab]

Any opinions on LOKI motors? I need to choose something for my Lvl 1 cert for next month and they seem to have good prices.

One of our club members flew a Loki I110 at our July 4/5 launch. It was the first Loki motor ever flown at one of our launches and the first I'd ever seen myself. Very, very impressive, with a 4-second burn time and a good exhaust signiture.

[Bill P]

Any opinions on LOKI motors? I need to choose something for my Lvl 1 cert for next month and they seem to have good prices.

Nice motors. When I get around to it, my L3 attempt will be with a Loki.

Most of my hardware (and motors flown) are Loki and Cesaroni, in that order.

[Handeman]

One of our club members flew a Loki I110 at our July 4/5 launch. It was the first Loki motor ever flown at one of our launches and the first I'd ever seen myself. Very, very impressive, with a 4-second burn time and a good exhaust signiture.

The I110 is a great motor. I used it for my L1 cert and got 4,200 feet with that 4+ sec. burn. I flew a lot of I motors in that rocket and the cert flight was it's highest flight until I put a J350W in it.

[Gabe Osborn]

I certainly have to agree with Bill. Our club uses primarily Cesaroni and Loki motors for solid propellant. Loki motors are really easy to assemble and they ROCK. Try the I405, that is a great motor. I will be doing my L3 in August (weather permitting) on a Loki M1882 in a PR Competitor 5.

[5x7]

I certainly have to agree with Bill. Our club uses primarily Cesaroni and Loki motors for solid propellant. Loki motors are really easy to assemble and they ROCK. Try the I405, that is a great motor. I will be doing my L3 in August (weather permitting) on a Loki M1882 in a PR Competitor 5.

You should get 12000' with that, it'll rip!

[MarkII]

Loki motors are really easy to assemble and they ROCK. Try the I405, that is a great motor. I will be doing my L3 in August (weather permitting) on a Loki M1882 in a PR Competitor 5.
Hey, hey! :gavel: No off topic discussions here! :D :bangpan:

MarkII

[Diosces]

Squished my Aerotech-only policy and bought a nice Pro 38 6G XL case with the J520 Skidmark reload for the pretty sparks ;). Looking forward to flying it at the August NERRF launch.

Also considering the Pro 29 mm hardware with skids for the kids but like everyone said the smaller Skidsmarks are very pricey for G impulkse motors,

Also shopping the 54-75 mm Pro Harware for fall at Higgs farm. Woohooo!
Pro 38 6XL (http://www.rocketryplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4343)

[dave carver]

Not quite;
Most of the flavors that AMW/ Kosdon East had were Pauls.
Dr Frank never did colors.
AMW nozzles & bulkheads are different than Kosdon.
Kosdon never did 3" or 76/75 mm either....

We'll just have to wait & see on that.



JD


I got my 3rd level with a 3" Kosdon M2240.

[n3tjm]

Got a chance to see and fly some of the new Pro29 motors this weekend. I purchased a 4 grain case and a H170 Blue Steak load. Since the weather was nice I decided to use the H170 in my Sumo.
http://www.gardei.com/July182009/H170_Sumo.jpg

Robert DeHate gave Tony Vincent a F36 Blue Streak to try in his Semroc SLS Hustler.

http://www.gardei.com/July182009/Tonys_F36_Blue%20_Streak_SLS_Hustler.jpg

[Jeroen_at_CTI]

Got a chance to see and fly some of the new Pro29 motors this weekend.
Great photos. Thanks for sharing those.

Jeroen

[stickershock23]

Since we are sharing pictures, Here's my Freaky Flyer on a pro 38 2 grain Skidmark.

I was very impressed. Easy clean up and easy to use. The roar from the motor was awesome. I went and bought like a dozen more reloads after that flight! I cant wait to try the 6grainXL in my rebuilt 3" rocket.

[cjl]

Wow - is that from a new batch or something? That has a LOT darker smoke than I've usually seen on the CTI skids (which is a great thing).

[ben_ullman]

Wow - is that from a new batch or something? That has a LOT darker smoke than I've usually seen on the CTI skids (which is a great thing).

the 2nd pic looks like "the real thing" The first one looks darker.

Ben

[C.O.B.H.C.]

Here is a Picture of my Performance Rocketry Competitor 4 on an Aerotech M1850W on her way to 18.6K.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3266/2893491820_1e359e4213_b.jpg
Photo by CLS.

[cjl]

Nice. I'll have to try one of those sometime :D

[C.O.B.H.C.]

Thanks Cjl. It is an awesome motor. It would give your Amraam one nice ride. I'm hoping to burn another one at XPRS 2009 this year or a M1450W.

[cjl]

It certainly would :D

It won't happen too soon - I'm planning on using a new CTI Pro75-5g M motor this October, but maybe next year at some point. How heavy was your Competitor?

[n3tjm]

My Megablast with a I345 (Pro38-3G)

http://www.gardei.com/Nov12008/20_I345WW_Megablast_Flight.jpg

Minie Magg with a H400
http://www.gardei.com/July182009/H400_Mini_Magg.jpg

Howard launches a Pro54 J210 :D Nice long burn
http://www.gardei.com/July182009/J210_Black_Brant.jpg

[C.O.B.H.C.]

My Competitor 4 fully load with motor, weighted in at 30 pounds. If you're going to fly a 5 grain 75mm 'M' motor I would suggest flying the M1315W instead. I used it for my L3 cert flight and it put my Competitor 4 up 16,345'.

[cjl]

My Competitor 4 fully load with motor, weighted in at 30 pounds. If you're going to fly a 5 grain 75mm 'M' motor I would suggest flying the M1315W instead. I used it for my L3 cert flight and it put my Competitor 4 up 16,345'.

Hmm - my AMRAAM is a bit more than that - it's 35lbs or so on a 4g L. As for the 1315, it's nice, but I'd rather fly the Pro75. It's a brand new motor, and should be pretty awesome (Jeroen - is it OK if I post the pdf that you gave me, or should I wait a bit?).

[Jeroen_at_CTI]

Hmm - my AMRAAM is a bit more than that - it's 35lbs or so on a 4g L. As for the 1315, it's nice, but I'd rather fly the Pro75. It's a brand new motor, and should be pretty awesome (Jeroen - is it OK if I post the pdf that you gave me, or should I wait a bit?).
I suggest we wait a little till everything is final. I'm hoping we get the certification done in 1-2 weeks. Things have been so busy here. It has been a crazy summer till now. Thank you for all your support of our products, great photos and enthusiastic feedback. That really helps!

Jeroen

[cjl]

OK, I'll wait then. As for the M1315, I definitely plan on flying it at some point, but I've seen a bunch of them and they're fairly common, so I'd rather fly the new motor first. I like new and unique motors :D

[C.O.B.H.C.]

Hmm - my AMRAAM is a bit more than that - it's 35lbs or so on a 4g L. As for the 1315, it's nice, but I'd rather fly the Pro75. It's a brand new motor, and should be pretty awesome (Jeroen - is it OK if I post the pdf that you gave me, or should I wait a bit?).

Wow 35lbs on a 4 grain L. I thought my Comp 4 on a M1850W was heavy at 30 pounds.

I'd rather fly an Aerotech. I don't really have any plans to fly any cti or pro-x motors ever.

[ben_ullman]

Wow 35lbs on a 4 grain L. I thought my Comp 4 on a M1850W was heavy at 30 pounds.

I'd rather fly an Aerotech. I don't really have any plans to fly any cti or pro-x motors ever.

Why is that?

Ben

[cjl]

Wow 35lbs on a 4 grain L. I thought my Comp 4 on a M1850W was heavy at 30 pounds.

I'd rather fly an Aerotech. I don't really have any plans to fly any cti or pro-x motors ever.

What a shame. They have some nice stuff. I try not to have any specific brand loyalty, and instead choose based on other qualities. I chose White Thunder for my L2 because I wanted a white, 75mm, full L motor, and Aerotech didn't have one of those (since the L1120 was reclassified as the M1297). I also wanted something a bit harder hitting than White Lightning just to ensure stability off the pad. When I wanted to fly a green motor though, I went Aerotech, because I prefer Mojave Green to Green Gorilla. I like Warp 9 more than Vmax, but CTI's blue is a bit nicer than Blue Thunder, at least in the smaller sizes. Basically, I chose motors based on their merits (K700Ws are pretty awesome though, and are in strong contention as my favorite motor of any size).

My :2:

Oh, and as for my AMRAAM's weight, yeah, it is a bit of a pig. 10lbs of that is noseweight though, since I insisted on a perfect scale model. If you get it moving pretty fast though, it will coast practically forever - it's got a really high ballistic coefficient.

[stickershock23]

Wow - is that from a new batch or something? That has a LOT darker smoke than I've usually seen on the CTI skids (which is a great thing).

the tube says may 7 2009. I thought it was beautiful!

[C.O.B.H.C.]

Why is that?

Ben

I just perfer Aerotech over cti. They have a great motor selection to keep me happy and flying.

[cjl]

Why do you prefer them though? I'm just curious - I like both brands over Animal or Loki (as much as anything because I prefer threads over snap rings), but I'm curious what the deciding factor is for you between CTI and AT.

[ben_ullman]

Why do you prefer them though?

Thats what I am getting at. CTI also has a good motor selection. Do they give you some kind of deal? Do you have a grudge with someone else? Do you work for AT ? ;)

There just seems to be so many other options out there. I am not knocking AT and I do occasionally fly an AT load but there are alot of other options out there.

Ben

[C.O.B.H.C.]

It has to do with my two many vendors sell only Aerotech. The other vendor that sells AT, cti, and amw sells at list price. The other two sell at a discount. Also AT reloads cost less then cti reloads. I was able to get my M1315 for my L3 flight for only $262 verse $300 for an M1400. Note I got the price for the M1400 from wildman.

[cjl]

That's a perfectly valid reason, honestly. There's definitely an element of availability wherever you fly. My local vendor carries CTI and AT, and will give me discounts on both, so I fly both.

[stickershock23]

To me it all has to do with customer service.

I have a few dealers I use consistently. they take care of me, they treat me right. I continue to use them.

Treat me bad and bye bye. I will never deal with you again. If Brand "A" treated me bad it's BYE BYE, and I encourage my friends to do the same thing.

I just placed a several hundred dollar order of CTI hardware, and reloads. and I am happy as a clam! I was treated Great, Got exactly what I wanted, the price was fair. The Product is AWESOME! I am a customer for life now!

being a vendor myself I would expect the same. I try my best to treat people right. and I hope to get lots of repeat customers. and I do!

[The EGE]

So far I've chosen Aerotech. They're the only ones so far with a 24mm system, and that's what appealed to me at a point where I was just transitioning to MPR. I then got a very good deal on ebay for a 29/180-240 system for my certification - I ended up spending somewhat less than I would have for an equivalent pair of CTI casings.

I'm now looking for a new small 29mm system. I'm pretty much set on an AT 29/40-120 system for the wide variety of loads, especially with the Fast Jack, Redline, and Mojave Green loads available. I probably won't try any Pro29 stuff in the future, because now that I have AT 29mm closures both the cases and loads are cheaper.

However, once I turn 18 and can buy loads myself, drive to regional launches, and get L2 certification, then the whole game changes. Then I'll probably go for Pro54 stuff so I can fly skidmarks.

I personally like the work of assembling AT reloads. It's fun for me to got through the work of assembling my own rocket motor and watching it work.

[pmlkid]

man i wish could we lock this why the aerotech vs amw vs pro- 38 and so on.. me i fly them all i have aerotech and amw with some pro-38 and 54 stuff

so what you get a kick back from aerotech

[roadkill]

Why do we have to think 'AT vs. Cesaroni',
I prefer the 'AT and Cesaroni' school of thought.

The two product lineups complement each other
very well giving me a huge selection of reloads
to choose from.

Granted, the initial investment in a few extra casings
hurts your check book a wee bit more but it pays off well...

I usually fly:

24mm - all Aerotech
29mm - all Aerotech so far, will get some AMW/Cesaroni soon
38mm - mostly AMW/Cesaroni, some Aerotech and Gorilla
54mm - Gorilla rules !!!

Let's do away with this us vs. them mentality and support
all the vendors in our small community to ensure success and
survival of our beloved hobby...

[bobkrech]

Folks

We have more selections in APCP motors than ever before, so let's loose the versus and emphasize the and.


Every commercial motor manufacturer sells NAR, TMT or CAR certified motors.
All work as specified.
All are different, none are better.
Use whatever motors you like.
Everyone has had an opportunity to speak.

Now it's time to move on.

Bob

[sylvie369]

Everyone has had an opportunity to speak.

Now it's time to move one.

Bob

On the assumption that's a typo, it's a good one.

I completely agree: it's great to have choices.

[MarkII]

http://www.rocketryforum.com/showpost.php?p=37631&postcount=57

MarkII

[billspad]

We have more selections in APCP motors than ever before


Not counting different delays, there are 739 certified motors.

[Pantherjon]

Not counting different delays, there are 739 certified motors.

WOW:eyepop:! Launch one a day for a little over 2 years! Then by the time you get done you will have to catch up on new ones that would be bound to come up during..Of course this would require a systematic approach of going from low to high!

Anyone up to do this?:roll:

[n5wd]

...Launch one a day for a little over 2 years! ...
Anyone up to do this?:roll:

Sure! I'll volunteer!

Now, if you can get me sponsorship from all the manufacturers.......:pop::w::headbang: