Estes Cosmos Mariner

[JAL3]

One of my earliest attempts to build a rocket was the Estes Cosmos Mariner. I believe it was the first of the "Skill Level 2" kits I attempted. That was right about the time I first learned of Elmer's Fill n' Finish. At the time, I wished I had never heard of the stuff. The reasons for that are the same as for the rocket STILL not being completed.

I went out and found some. The idea seemed to make sense. I was going to give it a try on the Mariner. Unfortunately, I had not yet read enough and I applied it right out of the container. I remember it being VERY thick. I troweled it on and used an ice cream stick to force it into the grain. I then let it dry for a few days. When I go back to it, the stuff hard hardened up pretty stiff. The rocket seemed heavy. I had only put on half a container but it seemed to weigh more than the full container had.

That's when the sanding started and never seemed to finish.:(

I got tired of it after a few weeks. Always I would put in some time sanding and always I would have a mess, a slightly lighter rocket and a very irate wife. That was also before I acquired a sanding block. I just kept taking new sheets of sandpaper and grinding down some more.

As I was doing so, I built some other rockets and read some things about the Mariner. It had a reputation of not performing very well. It had stopped being fun several packages of #220 sandpaper previously. Eventually, it got put away in a box and, about a year later, my wife banished my rockets from the house.

I dug out the old Mariner today for the first time in almost 2 years. It certainly looked better than I remembered but the filler was still on VERY thick in some places. Thankfully, though, I had already worked through the 3/8" accumulations. I also had a sanding block and a desire to work out some frustration. Then, I might even consider re-gluing a vertical stabilizer that had come off.

[JAL3]

Two hours later, I was very glad my wife had banished me and my rockets from the house as she has very strict ideals on the vocabulary appropriate to the clergy and can identify offending words even when I use languages with which she is not familiar.

Thankfully, I had gotten rid of most of the mess. I had progressed to the point where it was "good enough for me". That's all I ask of any rocket.

[JAL3]

I almost decided that I had enough to the Mariner today but decided that I would just consider the sanding as finish work and I wanted to get the "construction" back to where it was. With that in mind, I poked some hole in the wing and the popped vertical stabilizer and put it back on with a double glue joint of yellow glue.

[AKPilot]

If you get it to glide properly, Barry Tunick wants to hear from you. ;)

Seriously, I've got one and am hoping to not repeat what others have done, and hope that I can actually have it last a few flights, if not for a few years. It's an awesome looking BG, if I can get it to work properly.

[JAL3]

If you get it to glide properly, Barry Tunick wants to hear from you. ;)

Seriously, I've got one and am hoping to not repeat what others have done, and hope that I can actually have it last a few flights, if not for a few years. It's an awesome looking BG, if I can get it to work properly.

I've heard lots of bad things and that's filling me with trepidation.

The fact that I'm 0-7-1 with gliders so far just raises the anxiety factor.

At least, whether it works or not, it has now freed up a perfectly good box for the cat to hide in.

[JAL3]

The ongoing exploits, the lure of victory and the agony of defeat, as it pertains to this rocket, can be found chronicled in photos and vids here: http://flickr.com/photos/23694991@N03/collections/72157612945797617/

[cwbullet]

I have this kit and mean to build it soon. Nice thread. I hope I can

[DAllen]

I had one. I hated it. If I didn't know any better I would've thought that it were possessed with a hoard of demons. That thing was cursed the minute I opened the bag.

The build was a nightmare and flying it was worse. I managed to get it to glide well ONCE. And when it landed on it's "good" flight the nose got all chipped up because the plastic is rather brittle.

I think what cured me of ever flying it again was this particularly beautiful flight it had one fall day at a nice large field near a playground. I was about 150 yards away from the playground. Should be plenty far away for a boost glider that allegedly only goes 250' on a D12 - right? Wrong.

3..2..1..Launch...It goes up...arcs over...starts flying parallel to the ground STILL UNDER POWER...I begin wonder if my NAR insurance is going to cover this...Ejection pops, actually more like a KABOOM and the glider banks a hard right and promptly nose dived into the ground only 20 feet away from the playground. Yes, there were kids playing there with a parent nearby. I went over and apologized profusely for scaring anyone. Everyone was cool with it and I picked up the pieces.

If anyone EVER shows up at one of my club launches with one of these and I happen to be LSO/RSO I am going to make them put it on the away cell and call for a heads-up flight. I am not exaggerating. If you really really want to fly this do it alone in an extremely large field free of flammable undergrowth.

I am not joking.

-DAllen

[JAL3]

I have this kit and mean to build it soon. Nice thread. I hope I can

I hope it doesn't take you as long as it has taken me!

[JAL3]

I had one. I hated it. If I didn't know any better I would've thought that it were possessed with a hoard of demons. That thing was cursed the minute I opened the bag.

The build was a nightmare and flying it was worse. I managed to get it to glide well ONCE. And when it landed on it's "good" flight the nose got all chipped up because the plastic is rather brittle.

I think what cured me of ever flying it again was this particularly beautiful flight it had one fall day at a nice large field near a playground. I was about 150 yards away from the playground. Should be plenty far away for a boost glider that allegedly only goes 250' on a D12 - right? Wrong.

3..2..1..Launch...It goes up...arcs over...starts flying parallel to the ground STILL UNDER POWER...I begin wonder if my NAR insurance is going to cover this...Ejection pops, actually more like a KABOOM and the glider banks a hard right and promptly nose dived into the ground only 20 feet away from the playground. Yes, there were kids playing there with a parent nearby. I went over and apologized profusely for scaring anyone. Everyone was cool with it and I picked up the pieces.

If anyone EVER shows up at one of my club launches with one of these and I happen to be LSO/RSO I am going to make them put it on the away cell and call for a heads-up flight. I am not exaggerating. If you really really want to fly this do it alone in an extremely large field free of flammable undergrowth.

I am not joking.

-DAllen


This is the kind of testimony I was talking about at the beginning of the thread.

I want to finish it and give it a try but will probably not fly it till I get a chance to do so with the Amateur Rocketeers of Texas. That's generally pretty isolated.

If all else fails, I can do the exorcisms myself.

[Handeman]

I only saw one of these ever fly. It made two flights that day. The first had people diving into the ground as it power looped off the pad and headed right at the RSO at about four feet off the ground. Fortunately it continued it's loop and cleared the tent.

Later, it was setup for a second flight and turned 90º on the pad from the first launch so if it looped again, it would be parallel to the flight line, or that was the thinking. On its second flight was adeptly named "The RSO Hunter". It must have been trimmed a little better because it made a much larger loop this time. It ended up buzzing between the two lines of parked cars parallel to the flight line at about 10 feet high and 60+ mph.

I agree with DAllen, if you're going to fly this, do it in a large empty field and make sure you're a long way away when you push the button.

[JAL3]

I only saw one of these ever fly. It made two flights that day. The first had people diving into the ground as it power looped off the pad and headed right at the RSO at about four feet off the ground. Fortunately it continued it's loop and cleared the tent.

Later, it was setup for a second flight and turned 90º on the pad from the first launch so if it looped again, it would be parallel to the flight line, or that was the thinking. On its second flight was adeptly named "The RSO Hunter". It must have been trimmed a little better because it made a much larger loop this time. It ended up buzzing between the two lines of parked cars parallel to the flight line at about 10 feet high and 60+ mph.

I agree with DAllen, if you're going to fly this, do it in a large empty field and make sure you're a long way away when you push the button.


This almost sounds like a "normal" day when one of our regular members shows up. Always a real cardio workout when he's around.

Seriously, though, I will take precautions and make sure its a heads up. I might even dig out the old Kevlar helmet.

[DAllen]

I know what you might be thinking and what people who are reading this are thinking, "Aww, c'om on. It can't be that bad can it?"

YES

IT

IS

That said, I am not saying don't fly it at all. In fact, if I were in your shoes JAL3 I'd be itching to put a motor in it especially after spending so much time building the dumb thing. However, if you do insist on flying it please promise us you'll be extra careful.

-DAllen

[JAL3]

I know what you might be thinking and what people who are reading this are thinking, "Aww, c'om on. It can't be that bad can it?"

YES

IT

IS

That said, I am not saying don't fly it at all. In fact, if I were in your shoes JAL3 I'd be itching to put a motor in it especially after spending so much time building the dumb thing. However, if you do insist on flying it please promise us you'll be extra careful.

-DAllen


I get what you're saying and I believe you. You also summed up my sentiments exactly.

Oh. And I will be careful.

[Handeman]

I get what you're saying and I believe you. You also summed up my sentiments exactly.

Oh. And I will be careful.

Get a video too, if you're not ducking too much.

[JAL3]

Get a video too, if you're not ducking too much.

I try to get a video of each flight. Its almost never very good but I try.

[AstronMike]

Not that I *need* any more gliders of this type, but I have thought about doing an 'Astronized' 3x upscale of this thing. Hmm, wonder what the results of THAT would be.....:eek:;):eek:

[JAL3]

Hmm, wonder what the results of THAT would be.....:eek:;):eek:

Lots of thread traffic on the build and more on the flight.

[Fred22]

Fellas I own a Mariner and although it will not set any records for speed or height or glide duration it looksd really cool on it's brief flight. I use a six foot rod and windless days to get nifty scifi looking glides ;) I only put on one layer of paint and sand good edges on the wings. As soon as I get ten minutes I will post pics. Sorry so many of you fellas had such a rotten exeriance with itm
Cheers
Fred

[gpoehlein]

Y'know, one thing I thought of when I first saw the Cosmos Mariner was that it resembled the Sky Dart. I have one (I haven't started building it yet), but I keep wondering if it could be modded to launch like the Sky Dart and deploy the same way. I'll have to go back and look at the instructions again and see if it can be done. Would likely make the thing fly a LOT better.

[shreadvector]

I think I;ve seen one or two flown sucessfully. One was Mario Anleu's (nice finish as always).

The thing to watch out for is getting the trim good for the first flight and then remembering that each flight will result in a bit more crud building up inside the nose area, so the glider will end up a bit more nose heavy with each flight. This is because of the ejection charge clay cap leaving some debris inside. This can happen on the first flight, so you may want to trim for a very slight stall. Very, very slight.

[JAL3]

Y'know, one thing I thought of when I first saw the Cosmos Mariner was that it resembled the Sky Dart. I have one (I haven't started building it yet), but I keep wondering if it could be modded to launch like the Sky Dart and deploy the same way. I'll have to go back and look at the instructions again and see if it can be done. Would likely make the thing fly a LOT better.

I'm not familiar with the Sky Dart.

[JAL3]

I think I;ve seen one or two flown sucessfully. One was Mario Anleu's (nice finish as always).

The thing to watch out for is getting the trim good for the first flight and then remembering that each flight will result in a bit more crud building up inside the nose area, so the glider will end up a bit more nose heavy with each flight. This is because of the ejection charge clay cap leaving some debris inside. This can happen on the first flight, so you may want to trim for a very slight stall. Very, very slight.

Wonderful. I tend to do so well with trimming gliders.

I WISH!

[gpoehlein]

I'm not familiar with the Sky Dart.

Check it out here:

http://www.oldrocketplans.com/estes/estK-57/estK-57.htm

and here:

http://www.dars.org/jimz/k-57.htm

[AKPilot]

Or here . . .

Sky Dart & Orion (http://www.neubauerrockets.com/)

[JAL3]

Thanks for the links.

I do see the similarities. Does the Sky Dart have a better reputation?

[kjohnson]

Infinitely. The closest thing you can compare the Cosmos Mariner to would be the old faom brick Space Shuttle, or the OOP SRX model. The CM seeems to be heavier than the other two (never good) and so uses the D12 instead of the C6.

I have one that I'm working on now, and am unhappy right off the bat with the fit of the power pod into the main tube. Will need to address that before I get much further.

kj

[chrisudy]

My CM has flown twice. I had the thing trimmed out nicely by hand tossing in the backyard. On the first flight, it had a nice straight boost, ejected the power pod and immediately stalled. Nasty flight, but luckily it landed without damage - dove straight toward the ground and pulled up right before settling down onto the high weeds...
More noseweight added, flew great hand-tossed in the backyard. Then 2nd launch... Nice straight boost, power pod ejected, and the thing dove straight into the ground. Buried itself about 4 inches into the not-so-soft dirt. Plastic top shell demolished, about the first 3 inches of balsa was crushed....

Christine sent me new shell pieces and decals, the balsa was replaced and reinforced, new shell attached, and this time, I won't paint the replacement shell until after flight #3 :D

Chris

[delta22]

I built one and never got it to glide during repeated attempts to trim it.

The fit of the parts was very bad, and it took a lot of reworking and sanding to assemble.

In two years I have not launched it, and do not plan to ever, as I think is extremely unlikely to be stable going up or down.

I had hoped to come up with a way to modify it to make it flight worthy, but that is not going to happen.

[JAL3]

Thanks for the feedback. I do appreciate it.

As a glutton for punishment, I'm going to try and keep trying until its destroyed or lost.

The prospects do not look very good right now for success. All of the disasters and behaviors mentioned so far seem to be par for the course for any glider I build. If the CM is that much worse than normal, I might be in for some very exciting times.

[chrisudy]

I do give the CM points for excitement - you never know quite what it will do... :) When the current one crashes and is beyond repair after flight #3, I may build another just because it looks rather cool...

[rokitflite]

I do give the CM points for excitement - you never know quite what it will do... :) When the current one crashes and is beyond repair after flight #3, I may build another just because it looks rather cool...

Momma always said life is like a Cosmos Mariner flight... You never know what you might get...

On that note... At NARAM 50, Saturday I believe, someone launched a CM... I only looked (and ducked) when I heard the shotgun ejection... That thing had the most beautiful glide back to earth! As it got closer I realized what it was and was amazed! I had never seen one fly and had only heard bad things about them, but this one was awesome. I went over and congratulated the builder on an outstanding flight... I wish I could remember his name:(.

[shreadvector]

Biggest problem with consumer kit gliders is when they look "cool".

Cool looking gliders are most often NOT easy to trim or very stable in glide. The CM is a big fat semi-flat delta-wing that still must rely on airflow over the wing/body. If that airflow is disturbed it can stall. If it catches a side-gust it will wobble and can stall one or both wings.

A normal looking glider can work great. Anyone who thinks they personally cannot build and fly a boost-glider successfully is most likely the victim of purchasing a cool-looking pseudo-glider.

Estes has one that can work, but only if the tail is not melted and warped by the motor exhaust (and even then it can be replaced with balsa and protected with muffler tape): the Eagle. http://www.ehobbies.com/est2186.html

Other than that, build a glider from the dimensions showm in the Centuri Design Manual:
http://www.dars.org/jimz/cmrdm.htm

I also have tow kits that I make a batch of every few years called the Hornet Boost-Glider and the Shadowcat with Parasite Glider. They can be seen in the cheesy photo on my cheesy product sheet.
http://www.geocities.com/fredeshecter/prdctinf.pdf

[AKPilot]

Foam . . . cut foam . . . instead of using the plastic shell.

[JAL3]

Biggest problem with consumer kit gliders is when they look "cool".

Cool looking gliders are most often NOT easy to trim or very stable in glide. The CM is a big fat semi-flat delta-wing that still must rely on airflow over the wing/body. If that airflow is disturbed it can stall. If it catches a side-gust it will wobble and can stall one or both wings.

A normal looking glider can work great. Anyone who thinks they personally cannot build and fly a boost-glider successfully is most likely the victim of purchasing a cool-looking pseudo-glider.

Estes has one that can work, but only if the tail is not melted and warped by the motor exhaust (and even then it can be replaced with balsa and protected with muffler tape): the Eagle. http://www.ehobbies.com/est2186.html

Other than that, build a glider from the dimensions showm in the Centuri Design Manual:
http://www.dars.org/jimz/cmrdm.htm

I also have tow kits that I make a batch of every few years called the Hornet Boost-Glider and the Shadowcat with Parasite Glider. They can be seen in the cheesy photo on my cheesy product sheet.
http://www.geocities.com/fredeshecter/prdctinf.pdf


I'M DOOMED!!!!!!!!!!

I have to admit, the cool factor did affect my thinking when I bought the kit. It still affects me when I look at kits. I got this one when I was just getting back into the hobby and assumed that if it was from Estes, it had to be reliable.

[JAL3]

I had an unexpected 30 minutes after lunch before leaving for an appointment so I played some more with the Mariner.

I looks like the launch lug standoff did not survive storage and is currently AWOL. I did have some scrap balsa laying around from other projects and cut a piece to the length of the 3/16" lug. I then tested to make sure it would fit in the slot of the plastic shell and cut it to what, by my memory, seemed to be about the right length. That's when I realized I had lined up the grain for a failure and, based on the comments around here, the last thing I need is another failure point.

I recut the lug standoff and then glued on the lug with a double glue joint. Just before leaving for my appointment, I took the lug assembly and glued it into the CM.

[rocketron1948]

After reading the reviews on EMRR and watching the following video on YouTube I would have concerns about achieving a good flight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3q7PYGJ_3cI

Based on the EMRR reviews it looks like the few people who had success flew their Mariners on a quiet day with little wind and added additional nose cone weight. It looks like the longer the launch rod the better too.

Looks like this one is primarily a display model. It makes you wonder sometimes if the manufacturers adequaltely test their designs before putting a kit on the market. Sounds like this one could hurt someone at a crowded club launch. Heads up flight for sure!

Rocketron
NAR # 31475

[JAL3]

After reading the reviews on EMRR and watching the following video on YouTube I would have concerns about achieving a good flight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3q7PYGJ_3cI

Based on the EMRR reviews it looks like the few people who had success flew their Mariners on a quiet day with little wind and added additional nose cone weight. It looks like the longer the launch rod the better too.

Looks like this one is primarily a display model. It makes you wonder sometimes if the manufacturers adequaltely test their designs before putting a kit on the market. Sounds like this one could hurt someone at a crowded club launch. Heads up flight for sure!

Rocketron
NAR # 31475

That was ugly.

I won't fly it around people and will wait for a calm day. I'm beginning to wonder if we'll ever have another one down here.

THanks for the link.

[AKPilot]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3q7PYGJ_3cI




What I want to know is who as Auntie-E did test fly it and what were their results?

[rokitflite]

After reading the reviews on EMRR and watching the following video on YouTube I would have concerns about achieving a good flight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3q7PYGJ_3cI

Based on the EMRR reviews it looks like the few people who had success flew their Mariners on a quiet day with little wind and added additional nose cone weight. It looks like the longer the launch rod the better too.

Looks like this one is primarily a display model. It makes you wonder sometimes if the manufacturers adequaltely test their designs before putting a kit on the market. Sounds like this one could hurt someone at a crowded club launch. Heads up flight for sure!

Rocketron
NAR # 31475

In defense of the CM... Did anyone else here notice that it took the launch rod with it on its short flight?:rolleyes: Some of the comments reflect that.

[JAL3]

In defense of the CM... Did anyone else here notice that it took the launch rod with it on its short flight?:rolleyes: Some of the comments reflect that.

Your eyes are better than mine. I was wondering where they got the 8 foot launch rod. Now it begins to make more sense.

[JAL3]

I'd like some input here. I want to make sure I understand the instruction correctly.

As I understand it:

1. The starboard elevator is glued in place and is not meant to be adjusted.
2. The port elevator is connected only with a piece of cellophane tape and the little stringy thing.

Assuming that is correct, are there any suggestions for a better hinge? Something that might look better and be more durable?

[DAllen]

What I want to know is who as Auntie-E did test fly it and what were their results?

Estes tested this kit prior to manufacture? Shocking idea really...


I'd like some input here. I want to make sure I understand the instruction correctly.

As I understand it:

1. The starboard elevator is glued in place and is not meant to be adjusted.
2. The port elevator is connected only with a piece of cellophane tape and the little stringy thing.

Assuming that is correct, are there any suggestions for a better hinge? Something that might look better and be more durable?

Mmmkay, since it's been 2 years since I built it my memory is a touch fuzzy but I remember it being that way. Maybe a better hinge material would be a shipping tape of some sort. Remember, you are dealing with a little piece of balsa so it won't take much to hold it in place. IIRC the idea is to have the one elevator down and the other up so the craft would spin on the way up rather than do loops and when the pod is ejected the port elevator is released into the up position so that it can begin it's alleged "flight." It will make more sense if you read ahead a little.

-DAllen

[JAL3]

Estes tested this kit prior to manufacture? Shocking idea really...



Mmmkay, since it's been 2 years since I built it my memory is a touch fuzzy but I remember it being that way. Maybe a better hinge material would be a shipping tape of some sort. Remember, you are dealing with a little piece of balsa so it won't take much to hold it in place. IIRC the idea is to have the one elevator down and the other up so the craft would spin on the way up rather than do loops and when the pod is ejected the port elevator is released into the up position so that it can begin it's alleged "flight." It will make more sense if you read ahead a little.

-DAllen


I do appreciate the confirmation. That's how I understood it but I kept wondering if I had missed something. I have not yet done a "just tape it on" assembly for anything more than a temporary holdown on the engine hook.

"Alleged flight" I like that. Unfortunately it describes most of my glider experiences thus far.

[Handeman]

..snip....
Estes has one that can work, but only if the tail is not melted and warped by the motor exhaust (and even then it can be replaced with balsa and protected with muffler tape): the Eagle. http://www.ehobbies.com/est2186.html
...snip...

I have one of the Eagles. It flies very well. I've only had two issues with it. The first was that bending the rudder didn't do any good and it landed over a 1/4 mile away. The second was when I replaced the foam wing on the rear with a thicker, foam wing that was shaped with a very good air foil. It created so much lift it caused the thing to power loop off the pad and when it did begin gliding, it nosed down so bad it tried to do and inverted loop. Going back to just a flat rear wing fixed that and it glides great now.

[rokitflite]

Estes tested this kit prior to manufacture? Shocking idea really...

-DAllen

I remember when they came out with the re-release of the Maxi Alpha III I had to call them and tell them it could not be built per the instructions because the tube section that held down the motor clip was like 3 times thicker than the original and the plastic rings would not slide over it like the directions suggested... They were surprised. How hard would it have been to do a single test build on that model? Oooops!:D

[mike_bar]

Fellas I own a Mariner and although it will not set any records for speed or height or glide duration it looksd really cool on it's brief flight. I use a six foot rod and windless days to get nifty scifi looking glides ;) I only put on one layer of paint and sand good edges on the wings. As soon as I get ten minutes I will post pics. Sorry so many of you fellas had such a rotten experience with it.
Cheers
Fred


Hello Fred,
I like you thinking about building light. When you say one layer of paint, do you mean paint only or did you lightly prime the model first? Thanks for the input as I have a Cosmos Mariner in the bag here. I would agree the cool factor is high with this model. I am looking forward to your photos.
Regards,
Mike

[rokitflite]

Your eyes are better than mine. I was wondering where they got the 8 foot launch rod. Now it begins to make more sense.


:D:D:D Thats what I noticed at first... It seemed to travel up the launch rod forever and then the rod disappeared. I was like: "Did it just...? OMG it did!!!"

I had a Mean Machine do that a long time ago. It had a really low flight, and while we were all wondering what happened we heard this CHING!!! Ga-linga-ding-ding!!! About 50 feet behind us in the parking lot:rolleyes:.

[JAL3]

:D:D:D Thats what I noticed at first... It seemed to travel up the launch rod forever and then the rod disappeared. I was like: "Did it just...? OMG it did!!!"

I had a Mean Machine do that a long time ago. It had a really low flight, and while we were all wondering what happened we heard this CHING!!! Ga-linga-ding-ding!!! About 50 feet behind us in the parking lot:rolleyes:.

If a rocket is going to do something like that, I wish it would do so with a rail so that the eyes could better appreciate the ensuing chaos. Even a 1/4" rod would be ok but to do so with an 3/16" is so understated as to fail the visual interest criterion.

[Fred22]

Hello Fred,
I like you thinking about building light. When you say one layer of paint, do you mean paint only or did you lightly prime the model first? Thanks for the input as I have a Cosmos Mariner in the bag here. I would agree the cool factor is high with this model. I am looking forward to your photos.
Regards,
Mike
One coat of paint no primer :) Heres what mine looked like :) I love the shotgun noise when it blows the pod :)

[JAL3]

One coat of paint no primer :) Heres what mine looked like :) I love the shotgun noise when it blows the pod :)

That Texas flag looks a bit...unorthodox.

Nice job with the Canadian colors.

[chrisudy]

I'd like some input here. I want to make sure I understand the instruction correctly.

As I understand it:

1. The starboard elevator is glued in place and is not meant to be adjusted.
2. The port elevator is connected only with a piece of cellophane tape and the little stringy thing.

Assuming that is correct, are there any suggestions for a better hinge? Something that might look better and be more durable?

I used pieces of Dubro CA hinges (http://www.hobbypeople.net/gallery/701530.asp) for the elevator - it took a steady hand to cut the slot in the balsa to accommodate it

[gpoehlein]

I haven't tried it yet, but I've been told that those little fabric dryer softener sheets, after they've been used in the dryer, make great hinge material. (I also, supposedly, makes a good fin covering material on the scout).

Tyvek paper has also been suggested in the past, but I've not had great luck getting any glue to stick to the slick paper. If you can get it to stick, the stuff won't tear.

[JAL3]

I used pieces of Dubro CA hinges (http://www.hobbypeople.net/gallery/701530.asp) for the elevator - it took a steady hand to cut the slot in the balsa to accommodate it

OK. I saw the little things at the link but how do they work? Would you mind elaborating?

Steady hand? I really am doomed.

[JAL3]

I haven't tried it yet, but I've been told that those little fabric dryer softener sheets, after they've been used in the dryer, make great hinge material. (I also, supposedly, makes a good fin covering material on the scout).

Tyvek paper has also been suggested in the past, but I've not had great luck getting any glue to stick to the slick paper. If you can get it to stick, the stuff won't tear.

That's an interesting approach and sure to make the wife suspicious.

The Tyvek sounds interesting. I've only used it on my Golden Scout and don't remember any adhesion problems. I'll go dig out the instructions and see how it was applied because I don't remember.

[Fred22]

That Texas flag looks a bit...unorthodox.

Nice job with the Canadian colors.

Thanks. No disrespect to the lone star state intended at all sir :)
Cheers
fred

[AKPilot]

You know, I haven't built my CM just because of all these problems. However, in retrospect, why can't we simply use the plastic shell as a mold for something more sturdy?

I mentioned foam, but now that I think of it there's a lot of other materials that could be used.

Oh well, I guess there's a reason why the CM never won the X-Prize eh?

[chrisudy]

OK. I saw the little things at the link but how do they work? Would you mind elaborating?

Steady hand? I really am doomed.

You need to cut a slot in the balsa wing and elevator to accommodate the hinge - not a very big slot - about the thickness of 2 xacto blades. Insert the hinge material, and add some CA. The CA wicks into the hinge material and bonds to the balsa. If you're not careful cutting the slot, you can easily cut right through the wing... (Yes, I did it once...)

Another alternative is Dubro hinge tape (or 3M dermabond tape). It's rather popular in the foam RC parkflyer circles...

Chris

[JAL3]

Thanks. No disrespect to the lone star state intended at all sir :)
Cheers
fred

No disrespect was perceived. I actually did not know the CM was a Texas project until yesterday when I saw it in a book.

[JAL3]

You need to cut a slot in the balsa wing and elevator to accommodate the hinge - not a very big slot - about the thickness of 2 xacto blades. Insert the hinge material, and add some CA. The CA wicks into the hinge material and bonds to the balsa. If you're not careful cutting the slot, you can easily cut right through the wing... (Yes, I did it once...)

Another alternative is Dubro hinge tape (or 3M dermabond tape). It's rather popular in the foam RC parkflyer circles...

Chris

That helps. I understand the process now.

Thanks.

[foose4string]

Momma always said life is like a Cosmos Mariner flight... You never know what you might get...

On that note... At NARAM 50, Saturday I believe, someone launched a CM... I only looked (and ducked) when I heard the shotgun ejection... That thing had the most beautiful glide back to earth! As it got closer I realized what it was and was amazed! I had never seen one fly and had only heard bad things about them, but this one was awesome. I went over and congratulated the builder on an outstanding flight... I wish I could remember his name:(.

I remember that flight too and remember being amazed that someone was able to get it fly. I had never seen one launched on person until then. So, there is hope. I never purchased one because of all the horror stories. Had my only knowledge of the Cosmos Mariner been what I saw first hand, I would have bought one in a heart beat....plus it looks cool.;)

[Pem Tech]

At least, whether it works or not, it has now freed up a perfectly good box for the cat to hide in.

I would suggest the application of rocket power to said feline.
;)

[Pem Tech]

Foam . . . cut foam . . . instead of using the plastic shell.

OOhh....
Sounds challenging. How tough would it be to recreate the complex shape of the shell in foam?

[AKPilot]

OOhh....
Sounds challenging. How tough would it be to recreate the complex shape of the shell in foam?

Actually foam can be cut and sanded like wood. Not any foam, but the blue foam will do it. Ask the r/c airplane guys.

[rokitflite]

OOhh....
Sounds challenging. How tough would it be to recreate the complex shape of the shell in foam?

I was thinking pour plaster in the plastic body halves, pop out the plaster cast and use it as a mold to re-vacuum form it out of a thinner plastic.

[JAL3]

How about this:

Use the existing plastic shell as a mold. Pour in a mixture of 3 parts Portland cement, 1 part fire clay and 1 part BBs. allow to harden then assemble and sand as desired.

It will be a bit heavy but, based on prior reports in this thread, should be much safer for bystanders since it will not make it off the rod. As an added bonus, all the "action" takes place up close and personal and will be easy to see.

[El Cheapo]

would any of that really be that much lighter than just "building light"? One could also pour in foam as you've already got the mold. I'm just not sure the benefit would outweigh the effort as just good build techniques. I may just have to pick up one of these just cause.

[AKPilot]

would any of that really be that much lighter than just "building light"? One could also pour in foam as you've already got the mold. I'm just not sure the benefit would outweigh the effort as just good build techniques. I may just have to pick up one of these just cause.


You kidding? Now we're into the challenge of building a good, reliable, one. Liquid foam, foam sheets, resin, casting, I'm sure Auntie-E thought of all this when they built it.

[JAL3]

This flew well enough on D12s and an E15 put this up a long ways. Yea, none of this made the *glider* itself any better, but an old AstronMike rule is to make a clunky glider look better by getting it a lot higher to start with.

.

I Like that!!!

Most of my rockets look best from a VERY GREAT distance.

[JAL3]

I glued on the starboard elevator and looked through the instructions again. I didn't see anything else I needed/wanted to do before the finishing started so I just gave it a chance to dry.

If you're wondering about the sealer, I had long ago used balsa fillercoat on the elevators thinking that would give me a better taping surface. That's what I thought then though, now that I think of it, the tape sticks to the paint.

[JAL3]

The CM was dusted off and set in the booth where it got shot with a new can of Kilz.

[JAL3]

The other elevator got the treatment as well.

[aerospike]

I'd ditch the crap balsa that I'm sure the kit comes with and use some 4-5 lb/ft2 balsa. Build it light, it'll fly slower, boost higher and more stable, and the lower glide speed will reduce damage on landing. You can't build it like a HPR brick and expect it to boost or glide worth a damn. As far as finishes go on the balsa I'd try jap[anese] tissue and lightweight dope-maybe airbrush some color on top.

[JAL3]

I'd ditch the crap balsa that I'm sure the kit comes with and use some 4-5 lb/ft2 balsa. Build it light, it'll fly slower, boost higher and more stable, and the lower glide speed will reduce damage on landing. You can't build it like a HPR brick and expect it to boost or glide worth a damn. As far as finishes go on the balsa I'd try jap tissue and lightweight dope-maybe airbrush some color on top.

I'm so far into it now that I'm going along for the ride and see where it takes me.

[RimfireJim]

I haven't tried it yet, but I've been told that those little fabric dryer softener sheets, after they've been used in the dryer, make great hinge material. (I also, supposedly, makes a good fin covering material on the scout).
I thought they might make good balsa reinforcing material (lightweight, tough, thin), so I saved up a bunch for awhile before getting around to testing the theory. I didn't have any luck gluing them neatly to some balsa scraps. Tried white glue, which I suspected wasn't going to work, and it didn't. Tried CA, and it seemed like it took forever for it to cure and then the surface was still very fuzzy. I gave up on the idea and threw away all the dryer sheets I'd saved. Epoxy doesn't seem to make any sense from a weight standpoint, but maybe it wouldn't be that bad for things as small as hinges instead of entire fin surfaces.


Tyvek paper has also been suggested in the past, but I've not had great luck getting any glue to stick to the slick paper. If you can get it to stick, the stuff won't tear.
Saved some of that, too, with the same idea. Haven't tried gluing it yet. I'll give that a go soon.

[foose4string]

The (free)US Priority Mail envelopes are made of Tyvek and make great hinge material. It'll hold up much better than self adhesive or dryer sheets. I use CA to attach it, although contact cement would probably work too.

[El Cheapo]

You kidding? Now we're into the challenge of building a good, reliable, one. Liquid foam, foam sheets, resin, casting, I'm sure Auntie-E thought of all this when they built it.

That's exactly what I was trying say. I don't think any of that would be worth the effort other than building the existing kit light.

[JAL3]

After letting the Kilz dry overnight, the CM was taken out of the booth and sanded with #400 sandpaper. The model was then dusted off and put back in the booth where it was sprayed with the Testors Tan I had originally bought with the kit.

[JAL3]

I took the CM out of the booth and noticed immediately that it was a bit rough. THe paint had a flat finish and I want a gloss. To rectify that, I started wet sanding with #600 sandpaper. That helped a great deal but there were a few places where I sanded through the finish. I also noticed some divots that were more noticable now than before the painting.

[JAL3]

I pulled out the filler and started to fill in the divots in the original finish.

[heut]

Hi Jal3,

What glue did you use to bond the two plastic shells to the balsa frame?

[JAL3]

Hi Jal3,

What glue did you use to bond the two plastic shells to the balsa frame?

That was so long ago I have a hard time remembering. I do recall that the instruction mentioned something out of the ordinary. I think it was supposed to be some kind of a silicone adhesive. THe guys in the hobby shop had no clue.

I'll look in the garage later and see if I can find what I used.

[chrisudy]

Hi Jal3,

What glue did you use to bond the two plastic shells to the balsa frame?

I used DAP Aquarium sealant (http://www.acehardware.com/sm-dap-and-reg-aquarium-silicone-sealant-00688--pi-1419409.html) on mine. Lowes/HomeDepot/Ace should all have it. Walmart may have it as well.

Chris

[JAL3]

I used DAP Aquarium sealant (http://www.acehardware.com/sm-dap-and-reg-aquarium-silicone-sealant-00688--pi-1419409.html) on mine. Lowes/HomeDepot/Ace should all have it. Walmart may have it as well.

Chris

NUTS!

That's not what I used but I suspect it was a similar product. I forgot to look!

Sorry.

[JAL3]

I touched up a bit more on the paint and while waiting for it to dry, Decided to go ahead and attatch the chute.

It was a standard Estes plastic chute and was pre-assembled. It just slipped around the motor pod and fed through its own loop. It;s as simple as that.

[JAL3]

Well the tan has been resprayed and dried. I sanded it a little bit and then appled some gloss coating to smooth up the surface a bit. Now comes what I perceive to be the tricky part: masking and painting the silver areas.

I figured that there is no way I would be able to do it in one go so I am going to take it a step at a time, starting from the nose and working back. Accordingly, I masked off the nose where the demarcation line should be by my view of the facecard art and let rip with the silver.

[Fred22]

John dont forget to give this thing a few good tosses to check it's balance. I threw mine off the roof of my house and it did okay :)
Cheers
fred

[JAL3]

John dont forget to give this thing a few good tosses to check it's balance. I threw mine off the roof of my house and it did okay :)
Cheers
fred

This one has taken so much time, sapped so much enthusiam, waited so long, engendered so many preditions of abject failure, taken even more time etc. that I really am going to try and do it right.

I'm lousy with gliders in general. Trimming them is a black art. Still, I am going to proceed very carefully and give it a whirl.

WHen I'm ready to actually fly it, I'll set up the cameras, update my will and general liability coverage, dig out my Kevlar helmet and push the button.

I hope it chases somebody besides me. I'm getting too old for this stuff>:D

[JAL3]

I got another chance to go back to the shop today and took the opportunity to peel back the masking and inspect the results.

So Far, So Good.

[JAL3]

It was good enough, and the paint seemed dry enough, that I started masking for the next round.

[JAL3]

The silver was sprayed, I waited a while and peeled back the masking.

It still looks pretty fair.

I'm getting encouraged.

[MarkII]

You know, when Estes came out with the Cosmos Mariner, I was really interested in it. I really liked the look and the idea of it, and I was all set to get one. Then I started seeing the reviews, and they were not good. I really wanted to like this model, and I still do. So I'm rooting for you, John. Build her good, and get her to glide. Do it for yourself, do it for your fellow rocket flyers, but most of all, do it for me. :D I'm counting on you.

No pressure, now... ;)

Seriously, I hope that this all ends up being worthwhile and that it goes well for you. I want to see this fly almost as much as you do.

Mark \\.

[JAL3]

You know, when Estes came out with the Cosmos Mariner, I was really interested in it. I really liked the look and the idea of it, and I was all set to get one. Then I started seeing the reviews, and they were not good. I really wanted to like this model, and I still do. So I'm rooting for you, John. Build her good, and get her to glide. Do it for yourself, do it for your fellow rocket flyers, but most of all, do it for me. :D I'm counting on you.

No pressure, now... ;)

Seriously, I hope that this all ends up being worthwhile and that it goes well for you. I want to see this fly almost as much as you do.

Mark \\.


These feelings of doom and impending disaster just keep growing.:eek:

[MarkII]

These feelings of doom and impending disaster just keep growing.:eek:
Think happy thoughts.........happy thoughts.........

Really, think positive. If you don't, and you expect it to fail, it will.

Mark \\.

[JAL3]

Think happy thoughts.........happy thoughts.........

Really, think positive. If you don't, and you expect it to fail, it will.

Mark \\.

You sound like an optimist, one who believes we live in the best possible world.

I am a pessimist. I'm afraid you might be right.

[BsSmith]

It might fly like a piece of toilet trash, but it sure looks great! :D

[JAL3]

It might fly like a piece of toilet trash, but it sure looks great! :D

Your words of encouragements are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo appreciated.:p

[MarkII]

You sound like an optimist, one who believes we live in the best possible world.
No, but I think that we are all capable of doing better than we think we can do. And I think that we are all better people than we think we are.

Things look bleak right now (they certainly do for me), but we as a society and as a world can right this capsized ship that we are all on, and we will then be able to resume our incredible voyage...

...oh, where was I...?


I am a pessimist. I'm afraid you might be right.
I have confidence in you, John. Go for it!

Mark \\.

[BsSmith]

Your words of encouragements are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo appreciated.:p

Glad I could help! :p;)

[JAL3]

I don't have any images of her glide but it wasn't too shabby.
I was able to launch her twice (both with successful glide returns)
but on the third attempt, a strong ejection charge just blew out the front of the model.
(Maybe I'll build another...:confused:)

http://webpages.charter.net/anleu/net/Rocketry/Images/Anleu%27s%20Cosmos%20Mariner.jpg

That looks nice. Really nice.

I hope I can do as well.

[Fred22]

Think positive thoughts John. It will fly like a frightened angel :)
Cheers
fred

[JAL3]

Think positive thoughts John. It will fly like a frightened angel :)
Cheers
fred

My boss doesn't like it when I frighten the angels.:rolleyes:

[rokitflite]

My boss doesn't like it when I frighten the angels.:rolleyes:


Then make sure the forward ring of the pod is not too snug... The ejection charge is like a shotgun blast!:eek:

[JAL3]

Then make sure the forward ring of the pod is not too snug... The ejection charge is like a shotgun blast!:eek:

Thanks for the advice. I had seen several refferences to "shotgun ejections" and had assumed that they refferenced the amount of powder in the D12. I didn't realize that loosening the forward ring would help.

[El Cheapo]

Haven't kept up with every post since page three. So, with four pages of build photos and comments, are we actually going to get to see this thing fly or fall? Hopefully she'll fly enough to be retired in one piece. You've got the Big Man in your corner. I think you oughta go for it.

[shreadvector]

That's exactly what my mishap sounded like too.
Even though the pod fit started out fine, unfortunately
I believe the desert heat caused the metal rings to expand
just enough to create that "snug" fit on the subsequent launch.

Often there is "crud" build up after each launch of any model with an internal ejecting pod. That can make the pod hang a bit, and when the ejection charge goes off, if it cannot expand quickly, the pressure builds explosively (I think that may be a result of the burn rate of the particles increasing under pressure).

Loose pods are good.

[JAL3]

Haven't kept up with every post since page three. So, with four pages of build photos and comments, are we actually going to get to see this thing fly or fall? Hopefully she'll fly enough to be retired in one piece. You've got the Big Man in your corner. I think you oughta go for it.

Unfortunately it will not fly on 14 Feb but I'm sure it will be ready for the March launch. Right now I'm so far behind on flying that it seems I'm never going to catch up.

[Fred22]

Often there is "crud" build up after each launch of any model with an internal ejecting pod. That can make the pod hang a bit, and when the ejection charge goes off, if it cannot expand quickly, the pressure builds explosively (I think that may be a result of the burn rate of the particles increasing under pressure).

Loose pods are good.
That makes sence :)
Cheers
Fred

[rokitflite]

Often there is "crud" build up after each launch of any model with an internal ejecting pod. That can make the pod hang a bit, and when the ejection charge goes off, if it cannot expand quickly, the pressure builds explosively (I think that may be a result of the burn rate of the particles increasing under pressure).

Loose pods are good.

Thats why I built a baffle into the pod for the Fake-Wulf... In 10 flights I have not had to remove any ejection charge residue from the inside of the glider body or sand the rings to fit better.;)

[DAllen]

Haven't kept up with every post since page three. So, with four pages of build photos and comments, are we actually going to get to see this thing fly or fall? Hopefully she'll fly enough to be retired in one piece. You've got the Big Man in your corner. I think you oughta go for it.

I firmly believe the "Big Man" has a healthy sense of humor. Having him in your corner does not guarantee a "good" flight.

:rolleyes::cool::eek::D

-DAllen

[JAL3]

I firmly believe the "Big Man" has a healthy sense of humor. Having him in your corner does not guarantee a "good" flight.

:rolleyes::cool::eek::D

-DAllen

EDIT: I firmly believe the "Big Man" has a warped sense of humor. Having him in your corner does not guarantee a "good" flight

The stories...oh the stories...

[MarkII]

EDIT: I firmly believe the "Big Man" has a warped sense of humor. Having him in your corner does not guarantee a "good" flight

The stories...oh the stories...
"God moves in a mysterious way..." - William Cowper, Olney Hymns, 1779


This proverb should not, of course, be confused with:

"She moves in mysterious ways..." - Bono, Achtung Baby, 1991

:D

Mark \\.
(It's all right, it's all right, all right...")

[JAL3]

All efforts to get me in trouble with my wife, my bishop and my BOSS will cease forthwith!!!

[JAL3]

I managed to do a little more masking and painting today. This time I finished the leading edge of the wing.

[Peartree]

EDIT: I firmly believe the "Big Man" has a warped sense of humor.




Duck billed platypus.

'Nuff said.:D

[Fred22]

Duck billed platypus.

'Nuff said.:D

ROTHFLMBO :)
Cheers
fred

[JAL3]

I think I got the final masking for the silver done today. It's in the spirit of the face card but not exactly.

[JAL3]

And the result is quite acceptable to me.

[Fred22]

And the result is quite acceptable to me.

And to most other folks with the gift of sight :)
Cheers
fred

[JAL3]

And to most other folks with the gift of sight :)
Cheers
fred

Astigmatism helps as does my inability to manually focus my camera.

I hope to get it finished up tomorrow and start trimming it.!

[JAL3]

With the best intentions, I intended to complete the CM last week. That was until I looked at the decals and found they were stickers. I hate stickers. I decided that before applying them, I would add a few more coats of gloss to add to the adhesion. Mostly, though, I just lost heart in the project...again.

Today, I got off my backside and got started again.

The stickers are fairly simple. There are a couple of windshield stickers, a pair of Cosmos Mariner stickers and a pair of X Prize stickers. They went on easily enough.

[JAL3]

After applying the stickers, I put the CM back in the booth and gave it a couple of more coats of clear acrylic. That too helped the appearance.

[JAL3]

The acrylic dried quickly so I had a chance to log this rocket's first catastrophic failure, and it has never even been launched yet. It was calm outside so I decided to give it its first "test shove" and see how it glides.

:confused::(:mad::eek:

It never even tried to glide. It just kind of went into a multi axis spin and crashed.

[JAL3]

In Estes' defense, I have to admit that it wasn't the best idea on my part. I still had not installed the left elevator or put in any weight. I just walked by the open garage on my way back from the spray booth and tossed it on an impulse.

I used some thin CA to glue the stabilizer back in place. When that had dried, I added a white glue fillet to try and strengthen it. It was then set aside to dry, the hanger queen extraordinaire!

[MarkII]

Well, there, see? Now that you have pre-crashed it, you can go ahead and launch it with confidence. After all, what else could go wrong? :rolleyes: ;)

Keep at it; I really am interested in seeing how this all turns out.

MarkII

[Der Red Max]

In Estes' defense, I still had not installed the left elevator or put in any weight.
Um, yeah...I think it kinda needs those for it to work properly. - j/k

[Fred22]

the paint job is awesome so John lets get that thing with a D12-3 in it :)
Cheers
fred

[JAL3]

After all, what else could go wrong? :rolleyes: ;)


What are you trying to do, get somebody killed?

I can't imagine jinxing somebody like that.:rolleyes:

[JAL3]

Um, yeah...I think it kinda needs those for it to work properly. - j/k

Unfortunately, I do something do things impulsively without thinking. Of course SHE WHO MUST BE OBEYED says I do that quite often.

[JAL3]

the paint job is awesome so John lets get that thing with a D12-3 in it :)
Cheers
fred

That's the intent. I'll save the F12 reloads for something with lesser insurance premiums.

[MarkII]

Well, look at it this way: if your launch field doesn't turn into an NTSB investigation site, then the CM will have exceeded your expectations, and you can call it a success. And if it ends up being a smoldering pile of (well-finished and nicely painted) kindling, then you will have someone else that you can pin the blame on. ;)

You win, either way. So relax and fly this orange crate. :D

MarkII

[JAL3]

So relax and fly this orange crate. :D
MarkII

Relax he says.

Have i ever mentioned that my club's flying field is adjacent to the Alamo Fireworks warehouse that supplies the southwestern US?

[MarkII]

Relax he says.

Have i ever mentioned that my club's flying field is adjacent to the Alamo Fireworks warehouse that supplies the southwestern US?
Wow, does that mean that I'll be able to see the glow in the sky from here? :p

MarkII

[JAL3]

Wow, does that mean that I'll be able to see the glow in the sky from here? :p

MarkII

Nope. You'll be too busy running from the fireball to take time to turn around and look.:p:p

[MarkII]

Nope. You'll be too busy running from the fireball to take time to turn around and look.:p:p
"OK, everyone into the pool!!"

It'll be memorable... :cool:

MarkII

[MarkII]

Kinda like this, maybe...?

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0903/earthgrazer_ansmet.jpg

MarkII

[JAL3]

Kinda like this, maybe...?

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0903/earthgrazer_ansmet.jpg

MarkII

I am a Texan who loves Texas, a clergyman and, usually, pretty even tempered. Seeing scenes like that, however, make me want to beat the stuffing out of yankees who rub my nose in it.

It is beautiful.

[MarkII]

I am a Texan who loves Texas, a clergyman and, usually, pretty even tempered. Seeing scenes like that, however, make me want to beat the stuffing out of yankees who rub my nose in it.

It is beautiful.
Well, here's the source...

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap090302.html

MarkII

[Peartree]

I am a Texan who loves Texas, a clergyman and, usually, pretty even tempered. Seeing scenes like that, however, make me want to beat the stuffing out of yankees who rub my nose in it.

It is beautiful.

Technically, aren't Texans Yankees (as in not Confederates)?

Oooh, now I've done it. I'll probably never be welcome in Texas again...:D

[JAL3]

Well, here's the source...

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap090302.html

MarkII

I didn't notice the the special effects. I thought it was taken from up around where you live.

We do have some "mountains" here but, as far as I've been able to find, none of them are "pretty". The hill country is nice but its not the same.

[JAL3]

Technically, aren't Texans Yankees (as in not Confederates)?

Oooh, now I've done it. I'll probably never be welcome in Texas again...:D

YANKEES?

:mad:

Ya better be careful. The answer around here to questions like that consists of a tall tree and a short rope.

[delta22]

We don't have mountains that look like that in the East. Mountains here are older and greener.

Those are the Tetons in Wyoming, look similar to the Rockies.

Take if from a real Yankee ;)

[JAL3]

As a first try, I tried to trim the CM according to the instructions. I cut a slit in the elevator and used cellophane tape to put it in place. THe elastic band was put in place and I installed half of the clay.

OBSERVATIONS:

The tape is not going to work. It just won't stick. I'll go looking for some monocoat.

The elevator and clay did make a little difference. It did not make much difference but the 3 axis tumble resolved itself into just 2 axes.

I'm going to have to do more work on this one.

[MarkII]

I didn't notice the the special effects. I thought it was taken from up around where you live.

We do have some "mountains" here but, as far as I've been able to find, none of them are "pretty". The hill country is nice but its not the same.
Our mountains have their own kind of grandeur, but they don't look like the Tetons.*

I suspect that one of the reasons why sport rocketry is so popular in Texas, besides the presence of the aerospace industry and the national space program in the state, is the existence of large areas of flat or gently rolling open terrain in the state. That low horizon must really make one aware of the ocean of sky above, an ocean that is just begging to be sailed. There are times when I feel quite envious of what you have there. Take it from me, a forest isn't really the best place to fly rockets from...

Anyway, I chose the photo because it depicted a rare daylight fireball or bolide, and was a photo that by lucky coincidence just happened to have been posted on APOD yesterday. I though that it would fit in well with the thread at that point. All I intended to do was to exchange a few jokes and wisecracks with you, and I meant no offense.

MarkII



(* The Adirondacks are among the oldest mountains in the world. At one time, they were taller than the Himalayas. Millions and millions of years of erosion have eliminated all of the rock strata that composed most of their bulk, and what you see now are the granite bedrock "roots" of the mountain. They are a distinct mountain chain of their own, adjacent to, but distinct from, the Appalachians, and they are more closely related in a geological sense to the Laurentian Mountains of southern Quebec. The Adirondacks represent the dome-like upper surface of an enormous slab of anorthosite granite - a type of rock rare on Earth but common on the Moon - that is welling up from deep inside the Earth's mantle like a new tooth erupting from a gum. The previous tall mountains were composed of all of the rock above that was pushed up by this slab. That surface rock is all gone now, and the present mountains represent the "crown" of that "tooth." The Adirondacks are still growing, too - that ancient upwelling continues to this day - and the region is quite seismically active for a mountain chain. The region is riddled with faults. The Adirondacks are also considered to be fairly fast growing, too. All of those millennia of erosion, along with scouring by repeated glaciations that were up to two miles thick, have left the region with relatively little surface soil. The anorthosite granite bedrock - the hardest and densest granite yet discovered, is quite close to the surface. A common sight in any hike in the woods are large old conifers or hardwoods that have been toppled by high winds. One can easily see that the tree's root structure was spread out like a fan from the base of the trunk, but totally absent is a deep taproot, because the roots could not penetrate the rock. And sure enough, when one examines the footprint on the forest floor where the tree stood, one finds a patch of exposed granite bedrock whose shape exactly matches the outline of the fallen tree's root structure. But I digress..)

[JAL3]

Our mountains have their own kind of grandeur, but they don't look like the Tetons.*

I suspect that one of the reasons why sport rocketry is so popular in Texas, besides the presence of the aerospace industry and the national space program in the state, is the existence of large areas of flat or gently rolling open terrain in the state. That low horizon must really make one aware of the ocean of sky above, an ocean that is just begging to be sailed. There are times when I feel quite envious of what you have there. Take it from me, a forest isn't really the best place to fly rockets from...

Anyway, I chose the photo because it depicted a rare daylight fireball or bolide, and was a photo that by lucky coincidence just happened to have been posted on APOD yesterday. I though that it would fit in well with the thread at that point. All I intended to do was to exchange a few jokes and wisecracks with you, and I meant no offense.

MarkII



(* The Adirondacks are among the oldest mountains in the world. At one time, they were taller than the Himalayas. Millions and millions of years of erosion have eliminated all of the rock strata that composed most of their bulk, and what you see now are the granite bedrock "roots" of the mountain. They are a distinct mountain chain of their own, adjacent to, but distinct from, the Appalachians, and they are more closely related in a geological sense to the Laurentian Mountains of southern Quebec. The Adirondacks represent the dome-like upper surface of an enormous slab of anorthosite granite - a type of rock rare on Earth but common on the Moon - that is welling up from deep inside the Earth's mantle like a new tooth erupting from a gum. The previous tall mountains were composed of all of the rock above that was pushed up by this slab. That surface rock is all gone now, and the present mountains represent the "crown" of that "tooth." The Adirondacks are still growing, too - that ancient upwelling continues to this day - and the region is quite seismically active for a mountain chain. The region is riddled with faults. The Adirondacks are also considered to be fairly fast growing, too. All of those millennia of erosion, along with scouring by repeated glaciations that were up to two miles thick, have left the region with relatively little surface soil. The anorthosite granite bedrock - the hardest and densest granite yet discovered, is quite close to the surface. A common sight in any hike in the woods are large old conifers or hardwoods that have been toppled by high winds. One can easily see that the tree's root structure was spread out like a fan from the base of the trunk, but totally absent is a deep taproot, because the roots could not penetrate the rock. And sure enough, when one examines the footprint on the forest floor where the tree stood, one finds a patch of exposed granite bedrock whose shape exactly matches the outline of the fallen tree's root structure. But I digress..)

I didn't really take any offense. Its just a constitutional requirement down here to respond aggressivly when accused of being a yankee.

[Peartree]

Let's be clear, Mark didn't do the Yankee thing, that was me. Mark was just talking about mountains and fireballs. Being a Yankee is a good thing... Unless it has anything even remotely to do with baseball. Then we can agree that being a Yankee would be very, very bad.:D (Is it just my day to annoy people? Just kidding, sort of. Go Tribe!)

[JAL3]

Let's be clear, Mark didn't do the Yankee thing, that was me. Mark was just talking about mountains and fireballs. Being a Yankee is a good thing... Unless it has anything even remotely to do with baseball. Then we can agree that being a Yankee would be very, very bad.:D (Is it just my day to annoy people? Just kidding, sort of. Go Tribe!)

Its almost funny seeing these yank messages and the PMs that have gone out assuring that everything is meant in a good spirit. For those just tuning in, let me offer the following synopsis:

1. Being called a Yankee is not necessarily detrimental unless it involves baseball or a native Texan although those from Austin and points north are a suspicious lot.

2. The mountains are beautiful reguardless of what part of the country they are in

3. Nobody's really mad at anyone else

4. The Estes Cosmos Mariner is a real pain.


Back to our regularly scheduled thread.

[kjohnson]

A tip on trying to do a hand glide of the CM. The model is big and (relatively) heavy and it's shape requires a good bit of speed to fly. You will have to give it a healthy throw to get any real idea of what it will do.

kj

[JAL3]

A tip on trying to do a hand glide of the CM. The model is big and (relatively) heavy and it's shape requires a good bit of speed to fly. You will have to give it a healthy throw to get any real idea of what it will do.

kj

Thanks.

That's the sort of tip and advice that brought me to TRF to begin with.

[Handeman]

A tip on trying to do a hand glide of the CM. The model is big and (relatively) heavy and it's shape requires a good bit of speed to fly. You will have to give it a healthy throw to get any real idea of what it will do.

kj

That probably means to get a really good idea, you must stand 15 feet from a cinder block wall and through the CM at it as hard as you can. Your chance of damaging the CM will be very low, but you will get a good idea of it's looping and diving capabilities. If it hits the wall, well, obviously something was wrong, you probably didn't throw it hard enough.

[Fred22]

That probably means to get a really good idea, you must stand 15 feet from a cinder block wall and through the CM at it as hard as you can. Your chance of damaging the CM will be very low, but you will get a good idea of it's looping and diving capabilities. If it hits the wall, well, obviously something was wrong, you probably didn't throw it hard enough.

:confused: It will glide and fly well. I hand tossed mine in sime long grass to minimise impact until I had it balanced. It will be a short nifty looking flight with sound effects and when it goes well you can be terribly pleased with yourself :)
Cheers
fred

[JAL3]

I've not gotten anythign rocketry related done today becuase Wed is my busiest day at church. I got home tonight to check things out and noticed this thread is up to 153 posts and I still haven't even got the thing trimmed yet.

Talk about pressure...

[MarkII]

...

Talk about pressure...
Nobody's trying to pressure you. Quite the contrary; everyone has been offering advice and sending words of encouragement. Well, almost everyone... :D

MarkII

[JAL3]

Nobody's trying to pressure you. Quite the contrary; everyone has been offering advice and sending words of encouragement. Well, almost everyone... :D

MarkII

I know that. It just strikes me as strange that a notorious poor performer that has taken me almost 2 years to get this far, was joined (on the build thread) in progress, and seems to go so slowly has garnered this many views and responses.

At this point, there are several possible endgames:

1. It actually works well and everyone goes off to do more important things except that somebody submits the info to the Vatican for confirmation of a miracle

2. Its a specatular failure that will have everyone giving me a hard time for years to come, I get so frustrated that I give up rockets and go back to ecclesiastic embroidery

3. Its a variation on #2 above except that the flight path leads into the Alamo Fireworks warehouse and I sell my video rights to Inside Edition and use the funding to start my own X-prize entry which leads itself back to another variation of #2 above

4. Everything works well but the video gets messed up so nobody believes me and I am defrocked for promulgating lies and heresies from the pulpit (if it does work, there will be at least one sermon illustration on applied miracles that comes from it)

5. Just as I am about to launch, Elvis lands his UFO on my flying field, Jackie O and Bigfoot come out the hatch to welcome me into the Galactic Federation and I leave with them without ever having pushed the button...

6. SHE WHO MUST BE OBEYED intercepts the package coming from Fliskits before I can get it so this whole thread becomes moot as I recover the use of my arms and legs.


No Pressure.
Right.

[MarkII]

Actually, potential outcome #2 will just conform to everyone's expectations, so everyone will just give you a pat on the back and say, "Nice try," and will commiserate with you over the fact that it is a flawed design. After all, the prototype never made it off the ground, either. :rolleyes:

All other outcomes (except #6) will elicit cries of "COOOL!" and "Man, how did you do that?" (Don't worry about #4 - WE'LL believe you, if no one else does. ;) )

If #6 happens though, you're on your own... :p

MarkII

[JAL3]

Actually, potential outcome #2 will just conform to everyone's expectations, so everyone will just give you a pat on the back and say, "Nice try," and will commiserate with you over the fact that it is a flawed design. After all, the prototype never made it off the ground, either. :rolleyes:

All other outcomes (except #6) will elicit cries of "COOOL!" and "Man, how did you do that?" (Don't worry about #4 - WE'LL believe you, if no one else does. ;) )

If #6 happens though, you're on your own... :p

MarkII

I don't know how I lucked into the PERFECT wife for me. I am overweight and arthritic and have never been a fast runner. My wife is trim and petite. Somehow, I can still run faster than her. I hate to say it but she "runs like a girl". Most girls run better than me and I could NEVER catch them. Watching Gracie run is different. Its more like watching me learn to get up out of the wheelchair back in the day. She walks normally. She just runs funny.

The sad part is that she still catches me. I forget myself, look back and see her run, keel over laughing and she catches me every time. If I'm really bad, she pull out the Kimchi.:eek:

If she sees this post, I'll get a double does.:eek::eek:

[MarkII]

Yeah, watch out for that Kimchi; I have heard that it can be lethal...

MarkII

[heut]

So, were you able to fly the cosmos mariner? This thread has gone awfully quiet...

[JAL3]

So, were you able to fly the cosmos mariner? This thread has gone awfully quiet...

Not yet. Things have gotten VERY crazy in the last few weeks and I have done no building or maintainance. I was lucky to get a club launch in. I'm hoping things will clear up soon.

[WOOSHPREZ]

A few years ago one of our members flew a Cosmos Mariner with good results.
He thought that he had really pulled something off so I built mine and flew it a few times with pretty good results each flight as well. The thing never glides but rather sinks at an angle while it stalls. That is the best you'll ever get out of it. I just started reading all these posts and went into the rocket room and took mine out to look it over. It has seen it's share of special landings but I have never had to repair it beyond taping the door to the weighting compartment shut with lots of transparent tape. Don't trust any of the tape that comes with the kit.
So I balanced it on my finger without a motor in the pod. Everything in place but just no motor. It balances out with my finger just aft of and against the launch lug. I am pretty sure I had to add some extra clay to mine to get it configured this way but it was along time ago so I can't state that as a fact.
Get it into the sky!

[WOOSHPREZ]

John,
Don't bother to hand toss it.
You will get no information back from dropping this toad like you do a regular (real) glider.
Balance and fly it,
Good luck and God speed

[sj_h1]

I can't believe I read this whole thread! This worst than waiting for the last episode of the "new" Battlestar Galactica (by the way it was a let down. I found myself laughing and cheering you on and got hooked. I can't wait to hear how it flies!:)

[JAL3]

John,
Don't bother to hand toss it.
You will get no information back from dropping this toad like you do a regular (real) glider.
Balance and fly it,
Good luck and God speed

Thanks for the info.

Its still waiting to be repaired after the last hand toss. I've been so bloody busy that I haven't gotten any work done on this one or anything else.

[JAL3]

I can't believe I read this whole thread! This worst than waiting for the last episode of the "new" Battlestar Galactica (by the way it was a let down. I found myself laughing and cheering you on and got hooked. I can't wait to hear how it flies!:)

How do ya think I feel?

[kjohnson]

The thing never glides but rather sinks at an angle while it stalls. That is the best you'll ever get out of it.

So I balanced it on my finger without a motor in the pod. Everything in place but just no motor. It balances out with my finger just aft of and against the launch lug. I am pretty sure I had to add some extra clay to mine to get it configured this way but it was along time ago so I can't state that as a fact.
Get it into the sky!

Sounds to me from that flight description you needed some more weight in the nose. That's just me speaking from experience with other gliders. My CM is still only 1/4 built and will not be a free flight BG.

kj

[kjohnson]

Finished and flew the RC CM model. Photos and video can be found here:
http://www.oldrocketforum.com/showthread.php?t=5221

Version 2 in the works. ;)

kj

[JAL3]

I am going to get this one finished some day...assuming I ever get to a hobby shop to pick up some supplies.

[JAL3]

This is one of those projects that just takes the heart out of you for a while. I did go out and get some more material for it about a month ago but never could find the motivation to actually work on it until a few days ago.

I didn't need to peel off the elevator. No amount of tape would have held it in place and it came loose even before crashing to the ground on its test flight. All I had to do was clean it off.

[JAL3]

I had bought some trim monocoat, something with which I had little experience. Of the colors available in the LHS, black seemed the least objectionable. I cut 4 strips almost the width of the elevator. Only one needed to be hinged but I figured it would look better if both were the same.

[Fred22]

I had bought some trim monocoat, something with which I had little experience. Of the colors available in the LHS, black seemed the least objectionable. I cut 4 strips almost the width of the elevator. Only one needed to be hinged but I figured it would look better if both were the same.

John it will turn out well :)
Cheers
Bill

[JAL3]

The moveable elevator was put into place and then a strip of monocoat was applied. A similar strip was applied on the opposite side.

[JAL3]

The other 2 strips of monocoat were cut in half and applied to the ventral surface of the elevators. Again, an attempt at visual symmetry was maintained.

[JAL3]

I don't really care too much for the way the hinges look. At this point, though, I just want to get the thing finished and into the air.

[JAL3]

John it will turn out well :)
Cheers
Bill

I hope so.

I really would like to get this one finished

A. without a lawsuit
B. while I still have some of my own teeth and hair
C. in a year starting with a "2"

[Fred22]

I hope so.

I really would like to get this one finished

A. without a lawsuit
B. while I still have some of my own teeth and hair
C. in a year starting with a "2"

ROTHFLMBO It will :)
Cheers
Fred

[JAL3]

ROTHFLMBO It will :)
Cheers
Fred

That's the kind of faith I need to learn to promote.

[JAL3]

I tried to hand toss the CM today. It was not pretty and I think it definitely needs more nose weight than the single butter pat installed right now. Then I hit on the idea of trying to film the "glide" and post it for people who actually know what they're doing to give me advice. I coopted my Uncle Louie, age 97.

I don't think he "got" the part about following the rocket.:eyepop:

The first toss can be seen here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/23694991@N03/3846495005/

[JAL3]

We tried again and this time a tree got in the way. From what I could tell, it was mostly hurtling along under the impetus imparted by my arm and the "gliding" was minimal.

Uncle Louie did capture the evil act here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/23694991@N03/3846498127/

We did not tray again, mostly because I now needed to repair the vertical stabilizer that broke off.:(

[JAL3]

I took the CM back into the shop and looked. It was fixable.

This rocket has had more repairs before ever flying than most of my old ones have had.

[JAL3]

The stabilizer was glued back into place, this time using Titebond Wood and Molding glue. It took hold quickly and, after about half an hour, I applied the same glue as a BIG fillet.

[JAL3]

This rocket reminds me of a grand lady of my annual conference of the church. She had been a local pastor for years but lacked one of the mandatory courses for ordination. She was finally appointed to a church close enough to a school that she could take the course.

That June, she was finally ordained as an elder in full connection after serving for several decades. The next day was her mandatory retirement due to age.

I'd like to get just ONE flight out of this thing.

[JAL3]

One thing I am fairly certain of is that this rocket needed more nose weight. When tossed, it went straight for a bit and then started to swoop up. With that in mind, and not having any more of the clay pats, I pressed some BBs into the clay and sealed them in place with epoxy, leaving enough room to add more if needed.

[DAllen]

FLY THE DUMB THING ALREADY WILL YA?!

Sheez.

:pop:

I'm running out of pop-corn.

-Dave

[Pantherjon]

Yeah, John! Just stick it on the 'away cell' and let it fly! Or glide..or flop..or tumble..:p

[JAL3]

FLY THE DUMB THING ALREADY WILL YA?!

Sheez.

:pop:

I'm running out of pop-corn.

-Dave

That's what I love about TRF: all the valuable moral support in times of stress and difficulty.:rolleyes:

[JAL3]

Yeah, John! Just stick it on the 'away cell' and let it fly! Or glide..or flop..or tumble..:p

If all goes well, it will fly, flop or glide on 8 September, a day that will live in infamy...

[JAL3]

I tested the CM today after adding the nose weight. It did MUCH better and this time I had Toby trying to shoot the footage instead of Uncle Louie. Also much better.

Test Glide 3: http://www.flickr.com/photos/23694991@N03/3861144282/

Test Glide 4: http://www.flickr.com/photos/23694991@N03/3861145544/

Test Glide 5: http://www.flickr.com/photos/23694991@N03/3861146894/


I call the testing phase over.

[JAL3]

The last real piece of assembly for the CM was the installation of the hatch cover over the weight. I decided to paint it black to help the monocoat blend in better.

[JAL3]

After lots of searching, I finally found the engine pod and test fitted it. There was one place where the plastic shell interfered a little bit and that was filed down. The pod was then fit into place.

[JAL3]

If memory serves, the kit came with some sort of adhesive gaskit with which to mount the hatch cover. It is long gone. I decided to mount it with some flexible CA. Unfortunately, a blob of it ran and messed up the paint. A quick touch up with the brush should suffice.

[DAllen]

That's what I love about TRF: all the valuable moral support in times of stress and difficulty.:rolleyes:

I'm only here to help man.

;)

-Dave

[JAL3]

I needed to go to the hobby shop to replenish my stock of black acrylic so this project was going to go onto the back burner. Then I saw a set of Testor's acrylic paints that my daughter had gotten for some school project.:D

I know she never uses black. Pink and lime green, maybe mauve but never black...

In any event, I brushed on the paint over the CA scars and that healed them nicely.

[JAL3]

Finally, after more than 2 years, the Cosmos Mariner is ready to take to the air!

[RocketsNorth]

Awesome job John :clap:
I can't wait to see the pix and video of the launch.

My mom always told me patience is a virtue. You have a ton of virtue....

[JAL3]

Awesome job John :clap:
I can't wait to see the pix and video of the launch.

My mom always told me patience is a virtue. You have a ton of virtue....

We are missing the smilie with the vast volumes of liquid gushing from the nose and mouth as a post is being read, destroying all electonics in the spray radius.

Virtue and I are acquainted but is is a distant and cold relationship.

[Fred22]

I predict a short but epic flight and it will stick a great landing :)
Cheers'
fred

[Pantherjon]

I predict a short but epic flight and it will stick a great landing :)
Cheers'
fred

Hopefully not nose first!:y:

[JAL3]

I require that it clear the launch pad and not impact anyone without a sense of humor. Other than that, I
m trying to keep an open mind.

[DAllen]

If all goes well, it will fly, flop or glide on 8 September, a day that will live in infamy...

Duhn duhn duuuuuuuhn...T-minus ??hours ??minutes?

-Dave

[JAL3]

Duhn duhn duuuuuuuhn...T-minus ??hours ??minutes?

-Dave

Duh...

For some reason, I had thought that 8 September was the 2nd Saturday.


Its flying this coming Saturday.

[JAL3]

Duhn duhn duuuuuuuhn...T-minus ??hours ??minutes?

-Dave

Duh...

For some reason, I had thought that 8 September was the 2nd Saturday.


Its flying this coming Saturday.

[Pantherjon]

Good luck on the flight today John! ;) Get the video camera ready!..BTW, will you be wearing a hard hat when it is flown?:roll:

Honestly, I DO hope for the best for the flight.. :)

[JAL3]

Good luck on the flight today John! ;) Get the video camera ready!..BTW, will you be wearing a hard hat when it is flown?:roll:

Honestly, I DO hope for the best for the flight.. :)

I wish it were so.

It like I can't even count on the drought any more. Its raining. We really needed it but not on my launch day!

We're rescheduled for next saturday.

[Fred22]

I'm keeping fingers crossed John:)
Cheers
Fred

[JAL3]

I'm keeping fingers crossed John:)
Cheers
Fred

You better cross some other things too.

We've been in a drought with water rationing. It finally starts to break this past weekend. We needed it but...

I just heard a forecast saying that another disturbance may move in by the weekend. That will leave me peeved, to say the least.

[Fred22]

You better cross some other things too.

We've been in a drought with water rationing. It finally starts to break this past weekend. We needed it but...

I just heard a forecast saying that another disturbance may move in by the weekend. That will leave me peeved, to say the least.

Well John if it goes much longer get yourself some furs and a plane ticket. You can launch it up here and contrails at -40 are much thicker :)
9heers
Fred

[JAL3]

Well John if it goes much longer get yourself some furs and a plane ticket. You can launch it up here and contrails at -40 are much thicker :)
9heers
Fred

That sounds sooooo inviting. I love south Texas. Climate wise, though, give me Ellesmere Island any day. Greenland was nice too.

[DAllen]

T- 4 days and counting

The world is waiting. :pop:

-Dave

[JAL3]

Y'all are just never going to believe this. I'll post the report when I can review the phtosos and vid.

The reputation does not do justice to the awful reality.

Who would have thought that an ejection charge could blow the motor mount 75 yards and blow a hole through the nose...

[AKPilot]

Oh no John, you were our final hope!

Why haven't they recalled these?! And who, at Estes, did the beta testing of these puppies?!

[Donaldsrockets]

Sorry to hear this but I can't really say I'm too surprised given the very bad reputation this kit has.

I think this kit actually beats the Dude balloon rocket for being the biggest piece of junk that Estes has ever released.;)

Too bad though, the finished model looked great.:(

[DAllen]

Wow...blew out the nose? That's not what I expected. I wonder if that might be more of an issue with the motor rather than the CM. Then again, if the gases are confined too much because of the effort it takes to push out the engine pod with all that weight on it maybe that makes sense.

Pictures and/or video possibly?

-Dave

[Donaldsrockets]

Wow...blew out the nose? That's not what I expected. I wonder if that might be more of an issue with the motor rather than the CM. Then again, if the gases are confined too much because of the effort it takes to push out the engine pod with all that weight on it maybe that makes sense.

Pictures and/or video possibly?

-Dave

Yes that makes perfect sense. While I never actually had the nose blow out like John did, the ejection pod would always eject with a very loud and distinctive BOOM!!!

I also stripped a few Estes chutes on the pod from the force too. One time it kinked the pod tube on impact but I fixed that with a few wraps of duct tape.

Part of that problem could also be from the "firecracker" ejection charges that a lot of the newer Estes motors seem to have, especially the 13mm.;)

For apps like this I wish the ejection BP was separate from the motors. That way, you could add the amount you need for any particular rocket.

[JAL3]

I ill get pics and vids up but will not be able to get to it until tomorrow night at least.

The pod popped on the ground. It stripped the chute. It blew out the nose. It flew about 70 yards back to the flight line and almost beaned Stu who was prepping his Vega. We were talking about the "flight" when we heard the pop and saw the missile come sailing back towards us.

BTW, the guy who won the parachute duration contest chose a Dude as his prize!!!!!!!????

[CharlaineC]

dagnabbit so sorry for the loss with all the work you put in to her and she didn't even leave the groung. poo

[georgegassaway]

The pod popped on the ground.
Uh-oh, then it sounds like the flight went terribly bad for the model to be on the ground when the ejection went off.

Well, if it was on the ground when the ejection fired, then I have one theory on why the bulkhead at the front end of the tube would blow out. The pod has a lot of mass, and the glider has a lot of mass. When the ejection goes off in mid-air, the pod not only gets kicked backwards, but the glider also gets kicked FORWARDS. But if it was already on the ground, the glider was not going to slide forward too easily.

Indeed you have not given much info yet, so possibly it did “stick the landing”? Perhaps with the nose into the ground, and the aft end angled “up” a bit. Indeed, for the pod to travel as far thru the air as you describe, that sounds like a “mortar” firing off at a shallow angle, not a model laying parallel to the ground.

Anyway, if the glider was “stuck” and unable to get kicked forward at ejection, then the pressure of the ejection charge kicking the pod out the back may have built up a lot more than when the glider can get kicked forward. And that higher than normal pressure may have been enough to blow out the front end of the tube (or bulkhead - I have never built one), even though the pod had achieved enough backward momentum to travel as far as you described.

Or, if that was not it, another cause could be if the pod was not a reasonable slide-fit, or if when it started to eject backwards the chute around the pod might have jammed.

The nose section being blown out reminds me of what happened to my first R/C X-1 model in 1984 or so, on its one and only flight. I won’t go into all the details, except to say the engine was supposed to eject and yank about 4 ounces of noseweight out with it. Effectively the ejection charge overpressured the engine compartment, causing the front end of it to blow out, which in turn caused the entire rolled balsa rear fuselage to blow apart.

- George Gassaway

[thunderdog]

hi,
You know mine went in under power 10 weeks or longer ago emailed estes got a answer and never a replacement kit i got 6 emails from them oh next week, in a day or two but NEVER a relacement starting to get upset any one have a phone# for estes that someone answeres?:bangbang:

[JAL3]

Uh-oh, then it sounds like the flight went terribly bad for the model to be on the ground when the ejection went off.

Well, if it was on the ground when the ejection fired, then I have one theory on why the bulkhead at the front end of the tube would blow out. The pod has a lot of mass, and the glider has a lot of mass. When the ejection goes off in mid-air, the pod not only gets kicked backwards, but the glider also gets kicked FORWARDS. But if it was already on the ground, the glider was not going to slide forward too easily.

Indeed you have not given much info yet, so possibly it did “stick the landing”? Perhaps with the nose into the ground, and the aft end angled “up” a bit. Indeed, for the pod to travel as far thru the air as you describe, that sounds like a “mortar” firing off at a shallow angle, not a model laying parallel to the ground.

Anyway, if the glider was “stuck” and unable to get kicked forward at ejection, then the pressure of the ejection charge kicking the pod out the back may have built up a lot more than when the glider can get kicked forward. And that higher than normal pressure may have been enough to blow out the front end of the tube (or bulkhead - I have never built one), even though the pod had achieved enough backward momentum to travel as far as you described.

Or, if that was not it, another cause could be if the pod was not a reasonable slide-fit, or if when it started to eject backwards the chute around the pod might have jammed.

The nose section being blown out reminds me of what happened to my first R/C X-1 model in 1984 or so, on its one and only flight. I won’t go into all the details, except to say the engine was supposed to eject and yank about 4 ounces of noseweight out with it. Effectively the ejection charge overpressured the engine compartment, causing the front end of it to blow out, which in turn caused the entire rolled balsa rear fuselage to blow apart.

- George Gassaway

Its 845 PM and I just got home after leaving at 630 this morning. I am going to try to get around to this tonight but no promises.

George is pretty close in his analysis. The main difference I would note would be to liken it to a piece of siege artillery like a flank howitzer rather than a mortar. It was a pretty flat trajectory.

[JAL3]

After so long building, my Cosmos Mariner finally got a chance to fly and prove its detractors wrong. I loaded it with a D12-3 and inserted the engine pod. It was very loose and I added a few wraps of cellophane tape to hold it in and it just barely kept it from falling out the back end. It was put on the rod and I have to admit, it didn't look too bad.

[JAL3]

It looked even better at ignition. My normally pessimistic self made the mistake of feeling a twinge of optimism.

[JAL3]

Soon after leaving the rod, it arced over and proceeded horizontally for a while, slowly losing altitude. It hit the ground a little over 70 yards away.

[JAL3]

I was discussing the poor performance of the rocket with some of the guys at the launch when we all heard the ejection charge go off. It had already been on the ground for a few seconds. Then someone called, "Look out!" and I saw a tube flying back towards us with a very flat trajectory. It missed me by about 10 feet and tried to impale Stu Young's Upscale Vega. It missed.

[JAL3]

The rocket was found on its side, tail slightly up and with no damage to the wings or fins. The forward end, though, was a mess. The charge had blown out the front and stripped the weights off.

I gave the carcass away to a youngster who thought it was neat.

[JAL3]

I have some video that shows a little more including how the rocket was found but it will take me a while to get it edited.

[DAllen]

Wow. Just. Wow.

I think you have discovered a new way for this rocket to fail.

Did it spin on the way up? It's supposed to do that as it leaves the rod. Maybe you had to put too much nose weight in the glider to get it to glide correctly. That's the thing I hated about the CM; the D12 was just BARELY powerful enough to get it off the ground but putting a larger motor in it just seemed like asking for disaster.

-Dave

[JAL3]

Wow. Just. Wow.

I think you have discovered a new way for this rocket to fail.

Did it spin on the way up? It's supposed to do that as it leaves the rod. Maybe you had to put too much nose weight in the glider to get it to glide correctly. That's the thing I hated about the CM; the D12 was just BARELY powerful enough to get it off the ground but putting a larger motor in it just seemed like asking for disaster.

-Dave

Spin is a pretty active verb. I would say it gently rolled about the longitudinal axis...maybe once for the whole flight. I can check the video when I get to it.

[georgegassaway]

Seeing the pics, well, it seems like a lot of damage to the nose was from impacting the ground. All that dirt jammed into the cracks and breaks that opened up. To which the front bulkhead blowing out was adding insult to injury. Also, it is possible that the crash may have damaged the tube, bulkhead, or damaged the glue joint holding the bulkhead to the front of the tube.

If you were going to trash it, then OK, best to give it away. But after all this, I wish you’d kept it to try to do a fix to see if it would fly. I do not mean spend lots of time to make it look really pretty again type of fix, I mean “Git R’ Done” type of fix, cosmetics be “darned”, to see if the boost issue could be solved and get it into a glide (then if successful, make it pretty later).

Although, this kit does tend to fall into the category of “Fernando” kits. As in the Billy Crystal character he did on SNL (“You look Mahvelous”). To do a twist on his other motto: “It’s better to LOOK good than to FLY good”.

Or to summon another motto, this time from the movie Wargames: “The only winning move is not to play”. So maybe the second-best winning move was to give it away as you did.

- George

[Fred22]

Sorry John I had hoped for better for you :(
Cheers
fred

[JAL3]

I finally have the video. It does appear that the CM did some barrel rolls on its way to oblivion.

The vid is here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/23694991@N03/3957262511/

[AKPilot]

So, with John taking probably the most precautions of anyone I know in getting one of these to fly, and in me having one still in the package unbuilt, what's the lesson learned here in getting one to fly succesfully?

Outside of the obvious of not doing it.

[DAllen]

That looks very familiar to me. That's exactly what mine did except not so close to the ground. Mine ejected the pod and the glider did a hard half turn dive and smashed up the nose sort of like yours. The more I look at this video I am wondering if this is a serious case of rod whip. AK...I am wondering if there is some way to get this on a rail. I just don't think the D12 gives enough punch off the pad for a 3' long 3/16" rod. You really need about 6' of much bigger rod or rail. Maybe 1/4" lugs?

I know I've been sort of teasing you a bit John throughout this thread but I was hoping you'd get at least one more flight out of it than that.

:bangpan:

Estes was willing to recall the X-15 but not the CM?

:confused2:


-Dave

[hcmbanjo]

Quote from Jal3
"It does appear that the CM did some barrel rolls on its way to oblivion."

Hmmmm . . .
"Did some barrel rolls on its way to oblivion."

That's a Country song just waiting to be written!

I shouldn't make light of this. Sorry to see such a tough landing after a great build thread. We've all been there, maybe too many times.

[El Cheapo]

That stinks, John...but in my best overall wearin', Texas-Minister accent, "this is the Cosmos Mariner. It's got a bad reputation, so, HEADS UP!!!!!!" That was just funny :roll:

[aerospike]

To all of you worrying about being killed by a Cosmos Mariner, send me your unbuilt kits and I'll relieve you of your hazard.

[JAL3]

So, with John taking probably the most precautions of anyone I know in getting one of these to fly, and in me having one still in the package unbuilt, what's the lesson learned here in getting one to fly succesfully?

Outside of the obvious of not doing it.

I suggest an airmail stamp

[JAL3]

That looks very familiar to me. That's exactly what mine did except not so close to the ground. Mine ejected the pod and the glider did a hard half turn dive and smashed up the nose sort of like yours. The more I look at this video I am wondering if this is a serious case of rod whip. AK...I am wondering if there is some way to get this on a rail. I just don't think the D12 gives enough punch off the pad for a 3' long 3/16" rod. You really need about 6' of much bigger rod or rail. Maybe 1/4" lugs?

I know I've been sort of teasing you a bit John throughout this thread but I was hoping you'd get at least one more flight out of it than that.

:bangpan:

Estes was willing to recall the X-15 but not the CM?

:confused2:


-Dave

I thought about the 6' rod we don't have...and decided to just light the candle.

I was hoping to get more out of it but I'm glad to have finally gotten it out of my system.

[JAL3]

Quote from Jal3
"It does appear that the CM did some barrel rolls on its way to oblivion."

Hmmmm . . .
"Did some barrel rolls on its way to oblivion."

That's a Country song just waiting to be written!

I shouldn't make light of this. Sorry to see such a tough landing after a great build thread. We've all been there, maybe too many times.

Doubtless I'll be there again at some point.

I can't say I enjoyed the build or the flight...but I am glad to have done both.

[JAL3]

That stinks, John...but in my best overall wearin', Texas-Minister accent, "this is the Cosmos Mariner. It's got a bad reputation, so, HEADS UP!!!!!!" That was just funny :roll:

You should hear it when I'm really dressed up.

I never used to wear overalls. I had some surgery back in 2005 that cut me all around the waste and now belts irritate the scars so I wear suspenders or overalls. I feel like Junior Samples.

[El Cheapo]

Exactly who I was thinking of. That's even funnier.

[Fred22]

John you deserved a better fate. What other gliders have you built or flown?
Cheers
fred

[JAL3]

John you deserved a better fate. What other gliders have you built or flown?
Cheers
fred

I done The Edmonds Tinee, Holverson's Zoomie, a few Estes styrofoam things that shall remain nameless and Semroc's Swift Boost Glider. THe Swift is my only glide success to date. I just finished it and posted some vids last night in the glider part of the forum.

[Fred22]

I done The Edmonds Tinee, Holverson's Zoomie, a few Estes styrofoam things that shall remain nameless and Semroc's Swift Boost Glider. THe Swift is my only glide success to date. I just finished it and posted some vids last night in the glider part of the forum.
I built a pile of wreckage called a flatcat from quest i belive that was supposed to be fool proof and proved not to be :). SSem roc does have some great gliders pal :)
Cheers
fred

[JAL3]

I built a pile of wreckage called a flatcat from quest i belive that was supposed to be fool proof and proved not to be :). SSem roc does have some great gliders pal :)
Cheers
fred

I have a flat cap around here somewhere but it is the old one from MRC.

I just never had all that much interest in gliders. I was neutral on them until starting the Mariner and that drug out over a few years while I did not have the desire to make the effort on any others. THe Swift has gone some way towards changing that, though.

[kjohnson]

Keep it as light as possible, make sure the pod slides easily, longer launch rods. Or RC :).

kj


So, with John taking probably the most precautions of anyone I know in getting one of these to fly, and in me having one still in the package unbuilt, what's the lesson learned here in getting one to fly succesfully?

Outside of the obvious of not doing it.

[heut]

Y'all are just never going to believe this. I'll post the report when I can review the phtosos and vid.

The reputation does not do justice to the awful reality.

Who would have thought that an ejection charge could blow the motor mount 75 yards and blow a hole through the nose...

I believe you, my story about my CM is in the glider section. Same thing happened to me, during the second flight, it actually glided back but i stalled which it nearly did not do on the first flight (less nose weight so to speak :-().

The thing i nearly can't believe is that it happened on the 19th of september, EXACTLY the same day as yours, but on another continent ...

[JAL3]

I believe you, my story about my CM is in the glider section. Same thing happened to me, during the second flight, it actually glided back but i stalled which it nearly did not do on the first flight (less nose weight so to speak :-().

The thing i nearly can't believe is that it happened on the 19th of september, EXACTLY the same day as yours, but on another continent ...

I was about to suggest that we proclaim 19 Sept as Cosmos Mariner Memorial Day and we all make an effort to crash our CMs. Then I realized that I could never have one ready in time for the next occasion since the first one took me over 2 years to build.

Maybe we can just lift a pint to celebrate instead.

One of these days I'd like to see one of these fly the way they are supposed to, just to say I've seen it.

[AKPilot]

One of these days I'd like to see one of these fly the way they are supposed to, just to say I've seen it.


So would Estes . . .

[Peartree]

I saw one glide at NARAM. It was a sort of steep decent but it still was a decent glide in a space shuttle sort of a way. It was nice. I think everyone watched because we've heard so much about it.

[JAL3]

I saw one glide at NARAM. It was a sort of steep decent but it still was a decent glide in a space shuttle sort of a way. It was nice. I think everyone watched because we've heard so much about it.

Yup.

I've heard it does happen from time to time. I'd like to see it, or at least se a video of it.

[AKPilot]

Yup.

I've heard it does happen from time to time. I'd like to see it, or at least se a video of it.

Heck, I'd like to speak to the person who got it to work!

Then again, so would Estes . . . :)