Demanding younger certification

[SRBell]

I've got my 5 yo epoxying in his motor mount on his Minie Magg and my 11 yo glassing the fins on the Hyperloc. Both are adamant they should be allowed to at least get a level one cert lol! Actually, I think my older son runs Rocksim better than I do. Great hobby. Can't wait to see what they build when they're old enough to officially participate in HPR.

[Agent Titan]

I feel the same way. There should be a somewhat rigorous test (not too hard, though) that makes sure the kids know what the heck they're doing, and what the hazards are, but allow kids (I don't know, 12?) to get Cert's. It was really hard waiting for mine.

I got into MPR when I was 10, and I just kept counting down the days until I was fourteen! :)

[cwbullet]

My 12 year old feels the same way.

[Eric1]

Why not allow L1 at 15? Kinda like a beginners permit?

[cjl]

In large part because the motors still require you to be 18 to purchase/use IIRC.

[troj]

CPSC (Consumer Products Safety Commission) says you have to be 18 or over to possess and use G motors and above, without adult supervision.

NFPA (National Fire Protection Association) 1127 says you have to be 18 to be certified.

As far as 12 year olds go, there's a huge chasm between knowing the risks of something, and having the maturity to act accordingly.

-Kevin

[jadebox]

Why not allow L1 at 15? Kinda like a beginners permit?

Like this?


Junior HPR Level 1 Participation Program (http://www.nar.org/hpcert/jrhppreq.html)

:-)

-- Roger

[ClayD]

I dont buy the motor purchase legality!!!, TRA boldly said when federal regulation was 21 to legaly handle (not even purchase- but legaly allowed to touch ) an explosive, maintained they werent in the "compliance buisness" and allowed certification outside the legal confines of motor use.

They just dont want to allow Younger certifications. They chose to ignore younger and admonish achievment of those otherwise capable.-Brash, and inflamatory.. but you get my point.

NFPA guidlines are controlled by the rocket industry, Collusion between the associations, and the manufacturers, can change the NFPA guidlines to allow jr certifactions with no skin off thier backs...

Its an ego issue, and -- maybe,,,, an insurance one....??

I personally, dont think a 12 yearold... should be soley responsible in rocketry activity(like a L1 is).. a 14yearold, is a step above, but still needs lots of mentoring. A 16yearold, is self sufficient IMO, since they can legally be an adult drive a car, have a job, and are as resposible as any rocket adults ive seen. 17, can fly a cessna all by thier self....

Legally being able to purchase or even legaly use a motor, as TRA has maintained, shouldnt be an issue.

On a more important note. I have a son who is 5, we fly lots together... But, just like Kevin Trojanowski, he too fly's rockets well above his certification... they are called group projects.... His name on the flight card, and my TRA number...
My son and I know his achievement, and his failures, and better yet I get to acknowlege him 1 on 1. .. I think that means a lot more than just a membership fee and card to him.

[troj]

NFPA guidlines are controlled by the rocket industry, Collusion between the associations, and the manufacturers, can change the NFPA guidlines to allow jr certifactions with no skin off thier backs...

That's an incredibly misguided and inaccurate statement.

Take a look at the NFPA Rocketry Committee, and who's on it. The rocketry community has a few voices on it, but not even a simple majority.

There are 32 members on the committee for the 2008 version. Of those 32, five are part of the rocketry community -- Vern Estes, Bruce Kelly, Bill Stine, Gary Rosenfield, and Mary Roberts.

Saying that "NFPA guidlines [sic] are controlled by the rocket industry" is, best, delusional.

Before making grandiose claims about who controls it, how about you actually engage in conversation with those who sit in on the meetings, and who have first-hand experience in the processes, and what "we" do and do not have for leverage.

Based on your comments, it's evident you haven't done that.

-Kevin

[Rocketman248]

I knew it was only a matter of time before this thread turned ugly. :yawn:

[ClayD]

That's an incredibly misguided and inaccurate statement.

Take a look at the NFPA Rocketry Committee, and who's on it. The rocketry community has a few voices on it, but not even a simple majority.

There are 32 members on the committee for the 2008 version. Of those 32, five are part of the rocketry community -- Vern Estes, Bruce Kelly, Bill Stine, Gary Rosenfield, and Mary Roberts.

Saying that "NFPA guidlines [sic] are controlled by the rocket industry" is, best, delusional.

Before making grandiose claims about who controls it, how about you actually engage in conversation with those who sit in on the meetings, and who have first-hand experience in the processes, and what "we" do and do not have for leverage.

Based on your comments, it's evident you haven't done that.

-Kevin

Ive been called delusional before.

In an effort to be tactful(to the point) and not arguementative.

is that my piont only is that Manufactures compliance, adherance, and future with NFPA - is "AT WILL". They even have the ability, to scoff NFPA, and create their on outside accredidation. NFPA involvement in rocketry is only because hobby association, and hobby manufacturers made it that way in the first place.
That said, i must just be a crazy imbisyllic nut saying that NFPA wont take the industry voice as a heavy consideration to allow JR. Certification.

I may be dilusional, but at least I can see the forest, and the trees.

[ClayD]

I knew it was only a matter of time before this thread turned ugly. :yawn:

why do you propetuate negativity, with absolutely nothing to offer?

[bobkrech]

I dont buy the motor purchase legality!!!,.....
Sorry but it is fact. 16 CFR Chapter II Parts 1000 to 1750

The Consumer Product Safety Commission sets the federal regulation on the age requirements for purchasing hazardous or dangerous commercial products in the United States. And states also have the equivalent offices that determine what age requirements apply to hazardous or dangerous commercial product purchases.

Rocket motors are hazardous materials, and the use and sale of hazardous materials to those under 18 is prohibited. There is an exemption that allows the use of single use rocket motors with not more than 62.5 grams of propellant, and a total impulse not more than 80 Ns those under 18. http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2011-title16-vol2/pdf/CFR-2011-title16-vol2-sec1500-85.pdf (http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2011-title16-vol2/pdf/CFR-2011-title16-vol2-sec1500-85.pdf) There is no exemption for reloads.

If you go to a national chain store such as Walmart or Target and purchase Estes rocket motors, the cash register prompts the cashier to check that the purchaser is of a minimum age required by the state and federal laws.

This has nothing to do with the manufacturers who loose sales because of these laws.

Bob

[ClayD]

Sorry but it is fact. 16 CFR Chapter II Parts 1000 to 1750

The Consumer Product Safety Commission sets the federal regulation on the age requirements for purchasing hazardous of dangerous commercial products in the United States. And states also have the equivalent offices that determine what age requirements apply to hazardous or dangerous commercial product purchases.

Rocket motors are hazardous materials, and the use and sale of hazardous materials to those under 18 is prohibited. There is an exemption that allows the use of single use rocket motors with not more than 62.5 grams of propellant, and a total impulse not more than 80 Ns those under 18. http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2011-title16-vol2/pdf/CFR-2011-title16-vol2-sec1500-85.pdf (http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2011-title16-vol2/pdf/CFR-2011-title16-vol2-sec1500-85.pdf) There is no exemption for reloads.

If you go to a national chain store such as Walmart or Target and purchase Estes rocket motors, the cash register prompts the cashier to check that the purchaser is of a minimum age required by the state and federal laws.

This has nothing to do with the manufacturers who loose sales because of these laws.

Bob

Your are dead on! But the industry didnt care about the ATF LEUP requirement as applied to certifications when it was in effect.
WE are talking about the ability to certify alone, the ability to have in personal posession (back when leup was required), and the ability to purchase now days... dont apply to the "ability" to certify.

I can lawfully convey a highpower rocket motor to my child. there are no laws against it otherwise. If he can assemble the rocket, comply with all codes, and successfully launch and recover, he is no different than any other rocketeer on the planet.

My comments were constrained to the ability to certify alone, not with aqusition of the motor.

[troj]

My comments were constrained to the ability to certify alone, not with aqusition of the motor.

You can continue to deny it all you want, but numerous states have adopted the NFPA codes into state law. That means that HPR certification, by state law, is governed by NFPA 1127.

Wisconsin is but one of the latest. Here's the press release, which states that Wisconsin has adopted NFPA 1. NFPA 1 is the "mother lode" which references each of the standards.


Wisconsin Adopts NFPA 1, Fire Code
January 13, 2011

The state of Wisconsin has adopted the most recent edition of the National Fire Protection's (NFPA) NFPA 1, Fire Code. The adoption became effective on January 1, 2011.

"Today, perhaps more than ever, it is essential to provide the latest tools and training to the firefighters and building professionals charged with protecting people from fire," said Joe Hertel, program manager of the Safety and Buildings Division, Department of Commerce. "This code adoption will help to ensure that the people and buildings of Wisconsin are getting the best protection possible."

Recognized worldwide and adopted statewide in 18 states, NFPA 1 provides requirements necessary to establish a reasonable level of fire safety and property protection from hazards created by fire and explosion. Its primary purposes are to address basic fire prevention requirements and to reference or extract the fire prevention and protection aspects of many other NFPA codes and standards.

"The Wisconsin Fire Service has a great deal of confidence in NFPA 1 as our fire code," said Chief Gregg Cleveland, chair of the state fire code committee and chief of the La Crosse Fire Department. "With NFPA 1, we know that the fire service has an equal voice in working with other fire safety and building professionals to address issues that are important to protecting fire fighters and the people and property in our communities."

Wisconsin has participated in training and is scheduled for additional future trainings through programs developed by NFPA and offered to states that have adopted NFPA 1 and other key NFPA codes and standards. Instruction provided by NFPA technical experts covers the codes' requirements and the numerous ways they can be utilized and enforced. This training is free to government code enforcement officials.


Author:NFPA News Release

-Kevin

[Aksrockets]

I feel the same way. There should be a somewhat rigorous test (not too hard, though) that makes sure the kids know what the heck they're doing, and what the hazards are, but allow kids (I don't know, 12?) to get Cert's. It was really hard waiting for mine.

I got into MPR when I was 10, and I just kept counting down the days until I was fourteen! :)

Totaly on the same path as you are (or were) Im 14 and in the middle of my junior cert build (finally). I too think that the certification should be based on knowlege, not age. Instead of an age limit (or a lower age limit) there should be a test similar to level 2 (but a little bit easier) and a cert flight. I couldnt get a cert when I was younger then 14 and what made me mad was that I could get a 90% on the Level 2 practice tests but I couldnt get my Level 1.

[edwinshap1]

before you guys complain, move to california and try to launch an N, or launch a D reload without a california pyro class 3 license. yeah, all reloads, even 20 Ns ones require class 3 license since they are considered "experimental high power rocket motors". apparently a desert isn't safe enough...

requirements for it:
5 signatures of people who currently have the license
87 bucks
pretty much L2 test again

and to buy some stuff like quickburst igniters and such, you still need an ATF permit...

[ClayD]

You can continue to deny it all you want, but numerous states have adopted the NFPA codes into state law. That means that HPR certification, by state law, is governed by NFPA 1127.

Wisconsin is but one of the latest. Here's the press release, which states that Wisconsin has adopted NFPA 1. NFPA 1 is the "mother lode" which references each of the standards.



-Kevin

I wasnt going to write this, but if you want to play the laws.... every person that certified under 21 while ATF required LEUP, violated federal law in ther motor prep, and could be subjected to atf seeking prosecution for thier ability to assert control of an explosive without a legitimate permit...they didnt meet the 21yearold requirement. of the permit. To me this is not arguable... google NFA wepons permits, and family memebers being prosecuted for them.... same principals apply to nfa permits as does leup.

Tra and NFPA didnt bother that thier code was outside of federal law then, why now???

who did wisconsin congress stipulate as a certifying body? This must be clear and consice release of congressional power from the civilian to an appointed body, not TRA ipso facto through NFPA codes.... That is an unlawful redistribution of power. Like it or not.
I don't disagree, a firemarsal, congress, cant take good things and enforce them... never have... BUT, what happens when all the rocket manufacturers get fed up with NFPA drop manufacturing to those codes, and go to IAS and set forth a new industry standard.... (it happens...)

Having been apart of changing codes that legislatures use for LAW, i am well versed in this... My family buisness successfully changed the firecode tests in LA county highrise expansion joint requirements.... NFPA doesnt mean a thing...

Sure, it adopts nfpa,,, YAY,, god for it,, but does it delegate a forgein body control over its citizen, that is fedraly illegal....

[Rocketman248]

why do you propetuate negativity, with absolutely nothing to offer?

Because I learned very quickly to not waste my time arguing with you.

[ClayD]

before you guys complain, move to california and try to launch an N, or launch a D reload without a california pyro class 3 license. yeah, all reloads, even 20 Ns ones require class 3 license since they are considered "experimental high power rocket motors". apparently a desert isn't safe enough...

requirements for it:
5 signatures of people who currently have the license
87 bucks
pretty much L2 test again

and to buy some stuff like quickburst igniters and such, you still need an ATF permit...

I am not complaining, but i do advocate acknowlegement.

[ClayD]

Because I learned very quickly to not waste my time arguing with you.

Why do you let what i do, influence what you do?

[eggplant]

The main reason I haven't gone for a Junior Cert is MONEY. Open your wallet, as they always say.

[gagreen]

Lets face the simple fact, rocketry utilizes a controlled burn. These reload kits, if mishandled are dangerous. That is one of the factors that makes the hobby exciting but it also places a responsibility on us to maintain rigorous safety codes and rules to keep mishaps down and further govt control down of the hobby. Placing anything dangerous into the hands of a minor is a liability both financially and you can also be assured that if a kid burns themselves while handling the reload that it will make the news,no matter how rare it may be. That is bad press, bad press gets attention of legislators, legislators legislate and create a cause to help reelection (I lead the charge to get explosives out of kids hands bla bla bs) then we all pay the price. Grumpy old man here i guess but i say keep the hpr to the adults, let kids enjoy lpr and mpr while they are minors or "help" build a rocket that flies under the name of the adult. We are adults much longer than we are minors anyway.

I am all for kids building, learning, and flying rockets. I am not against the current jr hpr as it gives more mature kids a chance to fly big things under proper supervision, but fact of the matter is that there are those kids in their age range that dont know risk management or when to say no. Some adults are the same way, but adults will be held responsible whereas a minor tends to not have to worry about it as much.

Age restrictions in anyform for anything are debateable to the point of making anyone sick, drinking age higher than enlistment age for example, but lines must be drawn and rules must be made. That is just the way of things, the rocketry community right now is one mistake away from giving the lawmakers a chance to say "we need to control this, for safety or security". Minors provide a risk variable in hpr that is just unnecessary.


I wasnt trying to attack your kids maturity or skill set here, they are probably better builders than myself but think about all the kids in their class or friends. ive been a volunteer for big brothers for many years, and not to be mean but there are a few 16 y/o's that i worked with that i could barely trust them to do the right thing with a squirt gun, let alone 640 newton seconds of fury. :D

The key thing to remember is that you will be an adult for much longer than you were a minor, so take a step back, go outside, ride your bikes, buy out the store of estes engines and tear up the park or a field all day long for less than 5 hp flights.

[ClayD]

The main reason I haven't gone for a Junior Cert is MONEY. Open your wallet, as they always say.

Cost Prohibitive... i hate that term! :wink:

[Aksrockets]

The main reason I haven't gone for a Junior Cert is MONEY. Open your wallet, as they always say.

Yeah, for a 14 year old, a level 1 isn't cheap. If you have nothing to start with it could cost around $200. heres what mine is costing:

Rocket:
4.0" NC and BT (bought from someone at the club): $20
Engine mount and rail guides (red arrow hobbies): $20
Fins (1/8 in plywood fiberglassed): $15
Parachute (homeade): $5
Shock cord $5
Glue and paint: $20
Engine:
Cti pro29 3g case (special) $70
H163 reload $20
Nar membership: $25


Total: $200

[JDcluster]

"No skin off their backs" ??? You must be drinking some funky energy drink my friend... You should be happy to fly HP at all... If ATF case went the other way the hobby would be on it's last leg.
How much did you donate to the legal fund?

The NFPA makes their guidelines based upon recommendations from the mfg not the other way around.

We are very lucky we are not in the same boat as the fireworks industry.
If the CPSC made a case of it, they could make things allot worse for everyone. Would you want to loose the entire hobby because some kicking and screaming minors?

When I was growing up; not many people even knew about HP, let alone cry about not being old enough to do so..... It just proves the lack of maturity.
Then you are saying that it's ok for this same group to use spray paint, pocket knives, or a cigarette lighters as well? They are restricted sales is most states.....

No one likes following any rules these days, just kick and scream til someone comes running with a bottle.

Take a number and wait your turn in line like everyone else.

JD



I dont buy the motor purchase legality!!!, TRA boldly said when federal regulation was 21 to legaly handle (not even purchase- but legaly allowed to touch ) an explosive, maintained they werent in the "compliance buisness" and allowed certification outside the legal confines of motor use.

They just dont want to allow Younger certifications. They chose to ignore younger and admonish achievment of those otherwise capable.-Brash, and inflamatory.. but you get my point.

NFPA guidlines are controlled by the rocket industry, Collusion between the associations, and the manufacturers, can change the NFPA guidlines to allow jr certifactions with no skin off thier backs...

Its an ego issue, and -- maybe,,,, an insurance one....??

I personally, dont think a 12 yearold... should be soley responsible in rocketry activity(like a L1 is).. a 14yearold, is a step above, but still needs lots of mentoring. A 16yearold, is self sufficient IMO, since they can legally be an adult drive a car, have a job, and are as resposible as any rocket adults ive seen. 17, can fly a cessna all by thier self....

Legally being able to purchase or even legaly use a motor, as TRA has maintained, shouldnt be an issue.

On a more important note. I have a son who is 5, we fly lots together... But, just like Kevin Trojanowski, he too fly's rockets well above his certification... they are called group projects.... His name on the flight card, and my TRA number...
My son and I know his achievement, and his failures, and better yet I get to acknowlege him 1 on 1. .. I think that means a lot more than just a membership fee and card to him.

[ClayD]

Lets face the simple fact, rocketry utilizes a controlled burn. These reload kits, if mishandled are dangerous. That is one of the factors that makes the hobby exciting but it also places a responsibility on us to maintain rigorous safety codes and rules to keep mishaps down and further govt control down of the hobby. Placing anything dangerous into the hands of a minor is a liability both financially and you can also be assured that if a kid burns themselves while handling the reload that it will make the news,no matter how rare it may be. That is bad press, bad press gets attention of legislators, legislators legislate and create a cause to help reelection (I lead the charge to get explosives out of kids hands bla bla bs) then we all pay the price. Grumpy old man here i guess but i say keep the hpr to the adults, let kids enjoy lpr and mpr while they are minors or "help" build a rocket that flies under the name of the adult. We are adults much longer than we are minors anyway.

I am all for kids building, learning, and flying rockets. I am not against the current jr hpr as it gives more mature kids a chance to fly big things under proper supervision, but fact of the matter is that there are those kids in their age range that dont know risk management or when to say no. Some adults are the same way, but adults will be held responsible whereas a minor tends to not have to worry about it as much.

Age restrictions in anyform for anything are debateable to the point of making anyone sick, drinking age higher than enlistment age for example, but lines must be drawn and rules must be made. That is just the way of things, the rocketry community right now is one mistake away from giving the lawmakers a chance to say "we need to control this, for safety or security". Minors provide a risk variable in hpr that is just unnecessary.


I wasnt trying to attack your kids maturity or skill set here, they are probably better builders than myself but think about all the kids in their class or friends. ive been a volunteer for big brothers for many years, and not to be mean but there are a few 16 y/o's that i worked with that i could barely trust them to do the right thing with a squirt gun, let alone 640 newton seconds of fury. :D

The key thing to remember is that you will be an adult for much longer than you were a minor, so take a step back, go outside, ride your bikes, buy out the store of estes engines and tear up the park or a field all day long for less than 5 hp flights.


Yes, but as a father, you want to see you kids, have success and accomplishment, at what they chose to do. And the kids want the same.

Its not going to change the exposure of children to HPR, it's only going to acknowledge their success at what they are already doing.

My son has slid grains into an M.... Hes put 800ns of fury into the tailpipe and cinched down the retainer... HE IS 5...

As a father, I am also responsible for what he does, throwing rocks at cars, and starting fires with rockets... all of it... I am also the one who pays(not monotary) when he gets hurt for something I do that lets him get hurt... thats a fine line I walk as a parent, and as one, you dont consider others opinion of it.

None of this has anything to do with acknowledging accomplishment, of one who can and will do it safe and responsibly, like a 17yearold GA pilot can, in the same airspace...

[ClayD]

[QUOTE=JDcluster;193682The NFPA makes their guidelines based upon recommendations from the mfg not the other way around.
JD[/QUOTE]



"Collusion between the associations, and the manufacturers, can change the NFPA guidlines ----"- me acouple posts down...

arent we saying the same thing...???

I am well aware as an industry manufacturer of how i can change guidelines....

The industry, wants to exclude them... why is it necessary... its already cost prohibitive for the vast majority of minors, why can the ones that pay dues and able to afford it participate in our hobby...we have established, the industry doesnt care about complying with laws, why is it the only good excuse now.

As an adult, i have no place to argue its change... (let me be upfront there.. i am discussing open points of view... you can call it an arguement...)
BUT, the day my son has a door shut becasue of his age... i will help him fight his own battle, with all my energy... (thats how my dad did it, and its worked so far.....)

[Eric1]

Hmmm,

10 yr old (or younger) can purchase 5 gallon of gas
(Holy crap head for the hills Margret):y:

15 yr old can drive a 5000 lb car (high risk to self or others):eyepop:

17 can go in military with parental signature (extreme risk to self):eek:

18 to buy and fly a non explosive h motor. (minimal risk):p

21 for alcohol or tobacco (whatever):puke:


Seems a bit freakin out of order to me.:2:

[ClayD]

Hmmm,

10 yr old (or younger) can purchase 5 gallon of gas
(Holy crap head for the hills Margret):y:

15 yr old can drive a 5000 lb car (high risk to self or others):eyepop:

17 can go in military with parental signature (extreme risk to self):eek:

18 to buy and fly a non explosive h motor. (minimal risk):p

21 for alcohol or tobacco (whatever):puke:


Seems a bit freakin out of order to me.:2:

should we just go strait for alchohol and tabacki at 12.. . thats how it used to be in the gooden days....

[karmicavenger]

*WARNING* : Reading this thread will test your rational thought process

[JDcluster]

The NFPA guidelines are published, it's not a conspiracy.
They are only guidelines!

You should be more concerned with the CPSC, they have sent people to jail.


JD




"Collusion between the associations, and the manufacturers, can change the NFPA guidlines ----"- me acouple posts down...

arent we saying the same thing...???

I am well aware as an industry manufacturer of how i can change guidelines....

The industry, wants to exclude them... why is it necessary... its already cost prohibitive for the vast majority of minors, why can the ones that pay dues and able to afford it participate in our hobby...we have established, the industry doesnt care about complying with laws, why is it the only good excuse now.

As an adult, i have no place to argue its change... (let me be upfront there.. i am discussing open points of view... you can call it an argument...)
BUT, the day my son has a door shut because of his age... i will help him fight his own battle, with all my energy... (thats how my dad did it, and its worked so far.....)

[UPscaler]

There are several, myself included, teens on this forum that would purely agree that the cert age should be dropped.

I will be 16 this september.

I have flown commercial motors to I (and about 15 H's), and EX motors to K. I have no doubt I would have the ability to certify, but it really is more laws than TRA/NAR rules holding us back. That being said, here are my feelings:

We should be able to certify beyond L1, with similar rules to the Jr. L1 program NAR has. I would have no problem with the adult aid portion if I was certified Jr. L2/L3. If that means a spore intense L2 test, and more strict inspections of the rocket for a L3 flight, that's fine with me, I'd have nothing to hide.

I think this could be a great setup, especially for kids like me, who have a parent in the high power world. Learning all the stuff that comes with high power with my dad as he walks through the certification process has been a great experience for me. So far I have flown three dual deploy flights, all successful, and have built rockets that go mach, and have had minimal damage. There was a discussion like this locally a while ago, and somebody brought up the fact that kids can be destructive and careless, their example was my red crayon rocket, that came in ballistic because I accidently plugged the delay well on a 29/240 case. What was my response? it could happen to ANYONE, it was just my day, accidents happen. I have probably had less accidents in my year of high power than some people around here have in a weekend. The only ones I can thing of are the delay well plugged, a snapped shock cord that wasn't long enough, and an O ring failure on my kosdon case. When shown the right way to handle rockets, we can be just as safe as adults can be, age is just a number, what the cert system should really be based on is knowledge of rockets and maturity, unfortunately, there isn't exactly an easy way to test that.

Braden :2:

[BsSmith]

As a teenager, I would like to see the age requirement dropped, but it would never work. I feel that I am responsible enough to fly a high power rocket, and I feel that every other young person that I've met at launches and on forums are responsible enough to fly a high power rocket, but its not about that. There is always that one person in thousands that breaks the rules and makes a mess out of something. It could be an adult or a minor, but there is one little difference between the two. If the adult screws things up, the blame is on them, and they end up facing the consequences. If the minor screws up, somebody else ends up getting sued, and somebody else pays the fine. In my opinion, not allowing minors to launch has nothing to do with the NFPA, CPSP, DOT, NAR, or the TRA, it is all because nobody wants to get sued for somebody else's dumb mistake. If somebody can make millions of dollars from spilling hot coffee in their lap, imagine how much the person would make from a rocket landing in their lap.

I also have to say that I would never be able to launch high power rockets without the help of my dad, no matter if I was certified or not. That probably goes for most other teenagers here as well. In the end, we get to fly rockets and we get to have fun just like everybody else. We just have to get help from somebody else.

[edwinshap1]

There are several, myself included, teens on this forum that would purely agree that the cert age should be dropped.

I will be 16 this september.

I have flown commercial motors to I (and about 15 H's), and EX motors to K. I have no doubt I would have the ability to certify, but it really is more laws than TRA/NAR rules holding us back. That being said, here are my feelings

Braden :2:

though i feel that your dad will want to get L2/L3 before you do:roll:

though it does raise an interesting point. If a person in braden's situation;
experienced builder, knowledgeable and ready to move forward, and has a parent who is high power certified, then it should be acceptable for them to "pre certify" at the level they want.

what i mean is that instead of getting a L2 and L3 rocket together for the same day, why not have a pre cert where the minor in question completes the same required documents as an adult, but the NAR/TRA number flown on the rocket will be their parents.



so for instance braden could take the l2 exam and fly an l2 rocket, with his dad's number behind it. Then it would be recorded in that way. Same could be done with L3. The requirement for the members who are signing to not be family members, but it would be good if when 18, people with family who are certified will not have to do it all on the same day.:pc:

[Cyril's Scribe]

If feel that the status quo was satisfactory, I know it can be frustrating to wait, but looking back on it, I can see that until I was 14 I was not mature enough to fly a high-power rocket. Just like how teenagers have graduated licenses the NAR junior level certification was enough, I was not mature enough to fly a higher power rocket than level 1 until I had aged somewhat. I think the regulations in place that NAR uses are fair, and that the joy of rocketry comes from flying any rocket. I do not particularly care if the rocket has my name on it or my father's, as long it flies, I am happy.

[gagreen]

I think the age for a jr cert should be 16 and 18 for higher certs.

Kids ready to fly higher than their level generally have a parent of their level or higher who can sign the card and fly the rocket their kid built anyway. I dont get why there is even a debate here... Its really dumb, the only reason to cert is to allow you to buy larger motors, the only way most vendors will sell hp is if the person is 18 + certified for it. Certification level proves only how much money you have spent in the hobby, not the skill level anyway.

So if your under 18 sorry. 18 is a perfectly fine age for purchasing or flying hpr unsupervised. Face it kids do dumb things. Its how we learn we all did them, the older guys on here can attest to not doing a lot of things they thought was fine when they were in their young teens. Broken bones, torn ligaments from jumping of stuff, stitches, tieing 75lb test fishing line hood ornament height across a road well traveled by caddy's, a flamethrower, being dumb showing off in that crazy fast 1999 chevy cavalier, the list goes on and on. I have never met a 14 y/o that i would sell a high power motor to without a parent with him.

Taking a test on paper also will not show that someone is mature enough, anyone can pass a test if they put in a little time studying. People over 18 do dumb things as well, but there is a much greater burden of responsibility from 18 on.

Having a number on a card means nothing, from my short time back in the hobby its not the biggest rockets that get respect its the detailed, perfect fillets, awesome paintjobs, out landish fin designs, or large lp clusters.

Want respect from the older crowd? Show them up with your modeling skills, anyone can glues some fins to a big tube, shove a motor in and have someone press a button, very few folks can build highly detailed quality lp. scratch.

[edwinshap1]

i agree with gagreen, cept i think it should stay 14. hadn't crossed my mind that a jr level 1 can ask a higher certed friend if they'll take posession of the rocket for a little while to launch it. only time you have to have built the rocket is a cert flight :O

and it's true lol, isn't certification to buy bigger motors? and don't motors above 62.5g of propellant or something similiar (i know that some small motors are 14), require 18+?

even though federal regulations require 21 for an LEUP and so technically anyone under 21 cannot legally fly either...ugh, the government :P

but i think we can all agree continuing this thread will just be repeating the same:yawn::yawn::yawn::confused2:

[THier]

I am missing something here. Why the push to be certified at such a young age? What is wrong with teaming up with a certified flier? I know at MDRA you would have no problem finding a "team" launch partner.

I do have a pony in this race, my oldest daughter has been flying rockets for almost a quarter of her life, she started by carrying here Estes to the pad at 3, as she "matured" she was allowed to insert motor, install ignitor, now she is "doing it all" and teaches her younger sister. She wants to certify, but I explained to her she still has a lot to learn.

In short,, enjoy life, enjoy the hobby, being certified can wait. When I got to L3 I went way overboard with a 90% Harpoon which I love,, but is so much WORK to prep,, and even more to RECOVER, well,,, some of the fun is being lost.

Cheers,
Tom

[bobkrech]

i agree with gagreen, cept i think it should stay 14. hadn't crossed my mind that a jr level 1 can ask a higher certed friend if they'll take possession of the rocket for a little while to launch it. only time you have to have built the rocket is a cert flight :O

and it's true lol, isn't certification to buy bigger motors? and don't motors above 62.5g of propellant or something similar (i know that some small motors are 14), require 18+?

even though federal regulations require 21 for an LEUP and so technically anyone under 21 cannot legally fly either...ugh, the government :P

but i think we can all agree continuing this thread will just be repeating the same:yawn::yawn::yawn::confused2:
NAR/TRA won the lawsuit in 2009. APCP is not regulated by BATFE. No LEUP is required to purchase, possess, transport or use APCP motors, but you have to be 18 to do so by CPSC regulations.

The hazardous materials sales regulations are controlled by CPSC. Motors over F impulse, and reloadable motors of any size can not be sold to anyone under 18, that's federal law. That's why the NAR Jr HP program is set-up the way it is, and it is the only legal way it can be set-up.

The purpose of the L1 Jr certification program is to allow teens to learn how to build high power rockets and how to use them, not to buy motors. They are not allowed to build the motors, nor are they allowed to be in procession of the motor, and the flight card must be in the sponsors name. Electronic deployment is also not allowed because of the BP issue.

That's the only legal way it can be done.

Bob

[troj]

The purpose of the L1 Jr certification program is to allow teens to learn how to build high power rockets and how to use them, not to buy motors. They are not allowed to build the motors, nor are they allowed to be in procession of the motor, and the flight card must be in the sponsors name. Electronic deployment is also not allowed because of the BP issue.

Equally important with that is the fact that it's the adult who's legally (and financially) responsible for the rocket, and any possible damage it may create.

-Kevin

[stantonjtroy]

... thats a fine line I walk as a parent, and as one, you dont consider others opinion of it.

So by your logic, as parents we shouldn't consider your opinion on the matter. "It should be this way because my kid wants it and can do it" is BS instant gratification. Not good parenting by anyones measure.
My kids are just as capable as yours, based on what you've written, but I make it clear to them that the rules are there and they will be followed. It gives them something to work toward and look forward to. Just because they Can do it now dosn't mean they Should. They can and will improve their skill level as time moves on.
Fact: Age requirement for cert IS a rule. Follow it or persue the change through proper channels if you're so sure of the validity of your position but QUIT WHINING ABOUT IT. The reason we can enjoy the level of freedom we do without government intervention is because we, as a hobby and industry, self govern to the extent we do. Our rules are mede by the very people we fly with and those who supply the means to do what we do based on government guidlined They find acceptable. Perhaps you'd rather the rules be made by some idiot politician who has never even seen an Alpha and thinks we're all potential terrorists. This is the situation we live in. Deal with it.

[ben_ullman]

I look at it this way. Its *ALL* a bunch of politics. I have been flying for 8 years and high power for 6. There has only been one time where I have been told that I cannot step past the fight line. This was due to a member of the club making a stink and thinking it put the club at a huge risk. That member (IMO) also had alot less ROCKETRY experience (I am not comparing adult to child, just rocket level experince) than I did. *MY* rocket still flew with *MY* motor in it I just gave my dad the checklist of things to do and had him on the cell phone while doing it.

If you can prove you are able to handle it, the responsibility will follow. My dad goes out with every single flight I do. He enjoys it with me, he doesnt do it because of politics and BS but because he also enjoys it. Thats the key to success. He knows I am more knowledgable than him in rocketry, its more my thing than his, he just wanted something to share with me.

I agree that at 14-15 you are to young to be certified on your own. The reasons I say that is because you still need some adult guidance. I never went for JRL1 but I still flew *MY* first M in *MY* rocket at 16. It was a blast! But I was able to handle it and did the leg work and research to make it work.

prove people wrong with your actions, not words. I have taken plenty of $hit and I have given plenty of $hit over the years. I have 'proven' myself and quite a few people on here can contest to that.

Ben

[rocketsmith]

When I was 14, I thought I knew it all and could do anything just as well if not better than the adults I knew. In some instances I may have been right. As I have grown older, I realize I didn't know nearly as much as I thought. I'm sure there are several members here who will find the same thing. And a few that won't, to their detriment most likely.

Ultimately, the law considers the rights of a minor to be exercised via the parent or guardian. Since a minor cannot usually be held responsible for their negligence, should it occur, then by default said minor cannot exercise the rights of an adult who can be held culpable. There are mechanisms in place that allow minors to enjoy all the benifits of high power via the supervising adult. This is, in my opinion, more than sufficient access for a minor.

David B. Smith.

[MaxQ]

I look at it this way. Its *ALL* a bunch of politics. I have been flying for 8 years and high power for 6. There has only been one time where I have been told that I cannot step past the fight line. This was due to a member of the club making a stink and thinking it put the club at a huge risk. That member (IMO) also had alot less ROCKETRY experience (I am not comparing adult to child, just rocket level experince) than I did. *MY* rocket still flew with *MY* motor in it I just gave my dad the checklist of things to do and had him on the cell phone while doing it.

If you can prove you are able to handle it, the responsibility will follow. My dad goes out with every single flight I do. He enjoys it with me, he doesnt do it because of politics and BS but because he also enjoys it. Thats the key to success. He knows I am more knowledgable than him in rocketry, its more my thing than his, he just wanted something to share with me.

I agree that at 14-15 you are to young to be certified on your own. The reasons I say that is because you still need some adult guidance. I never went for JRL1 but I still flew *MY* first M in *MY* rocket at 16. It was a blast! But I was able to handle it and did the leg work and research to make it work.

prove people wrong with your actions, not words. I have taken plenty of $hit and I have given plenty of $hit over the years. I have 'proven' myself and quite a few people on here can contest to that.

Ben
Oh yeah...quite a few people did contest that.

How many can people can "attest" to that?

[JDcluster]

Team flying is ok to me, but when your team isn't around you should still follow the rules.

You can blame politics all you want, but rules are rules. Only you can choose to obey them or break them.
I guess when you have enough money, rules don't apply????




JD




I look at it this way. Its *ALL* a bunch of politics. I have been flying for 8 years and high power for 6. There has only been one time where I have been told that I cannot step past the fight line. This was due to a member of the club making a stink and thinking it put the club at a huge risk. That member (IMO) also had alot less ROCKETRY experience (I am not comparing adult to child, just rocket level experince) than I did. *MY* rocket still flew with *MY* motor in it I just gave my dad the checklist of things to do and had him on the cell phone while doing it.

If you can prove you are able to handle it, the responsibility will follow. My dad goes out with every single flight I do. He enjoys it with me, he doesn't do it because of politics and BS but because he also enjoys it. That's the key to success. He knows I am more knowledgeable than him in rocketry, its more my thing than his, he just wanted something to share with me.

I agree that at 14-15 you are to young to be certified on your own. The reasons I say that is because you still need some adult guidance. I never went for JRL1 but I still flew *MY* first M in *MY* rocket at 16. It was a blast! But I was able to handle it and did the leg work and research to make it work.

prove people wrong with your actions, not words. I have taken plenty of $hit and I have given plenty of $hit over the years. I have 'proven' myself and quite a few people on here can contest to that.

Ben

[edwinshap1]

When I was 14, I thought I knew it all and could do anything just as well if not better than the adults I knew. In some instances I may have been right. As I have grown older, I realize I didn't know nearly as much as I thought. I'm sure there are several members here who will find the same thing. And a few that won't, to their detriment most likely.

Ultimately, the law considers the rights of a minor to be exercised via the parent or guardian. Since a minor cannot usually be held responsible for their negligence, should it occur, then by default said minor cannot exercise the rights of an adult who can be held culpable. There are mechanisms in place that allow minors to enjoy all the benifits of high power via the supervising adult. This is, in my opinion, more than sufficient access for a minor.

David B. Smith.

whats the expression "the more you know, the more your realize how much you don't know?" i guess all is relative:2:

[WiK]

Here in the UK there aren't any age limits on HPR certifications, nor are there any legal age limits for purchasing or using motors, as far as I'm aware. It's all fine under the UKRA safety code, and more importantly it's all covered by our insurance. Teenagers certing L1 isn't at all uncommon here, we've even had a 10yr old successfully get his L1 (using a hybrid motor, even!).

I'm not aware of any problems caused by this. Of course there's always one or two kids which make you think "Should they really be able to get L1?", but then again I also think that about a few adults.

Of course, a few years ago you couldn't buy *any* AP (or loose BP for ejection charges) in the UK without an explosives licence from the Police. There were no age limits on that either, but going through the process of successfully applying for one, including interviews, background checks and all that IMO demonstrated that you were more than mature enough to fly high power. These days the law has been changed and lets you purchase and use smaller (<54mm) AP without a licence, so that hurdle/sign of maturity has been removed.

I really think age is just a number when it comes to rocketry, and being >18 doesn't necessarily make you a safer/more responsible HPR flier. Of course with the laws the way they are in the US, I don't think you have much choice, and the Jr L1 program seems like a good compromise. And as I'm sure has been said already, if you're active in a club, have a good flight record and can prove you know what you're talking about, you shouldn't have any problems finding an adult who you can fly HPR under.

Cheers,
Phil

[Agent Titan]

I want to move to Britain........

If there was some way that we could prove ourselves, some intensive test, that showed our maturity, or whatever is needed, I would take it. If there was a logic test where there were no pre-written answers, just common sense, etc, and it went into detail, then I would love to take it so that I could at least fly L2 motors, or buy L1 motors, or whatever. I would be fine with a background check, police investigation, whatever. At least grant minors some importance.

I do honor and respect the Jr. program, but I just feel there should be some further step.

[gagreen]

I want to move to Britain........

If there was some way that we could prove ourselves, some intensive test, that showed our maturity, or whatever is needed, I would take it. If there was a logic test where there were no pre-written answers, just common sense, etc, and it went into detail, then I would love to take it so that I could at least fly L2 motors, or buy L1 motors, or whatever. I would be fine with a background check, police investigation, whatever. At least grant minors some importance.

I do honor and respect the Jr. program, but I just feel there should be some further step.

A background check on a 14 to 17 y/o is pretty much useless. Hands down fact is in todays world there is no way the government, nor industry would loosen a restriction on age to buy hp motors. Minors are granted quite a bit of importance, free education that is your responsibility to pass that every adult pays for through taxes, youth organizations, and most of all preparing you to be productive adults and restricting potential dangers to help keep kids safe. It is not that us old guys think kids are all bad, or not important, everything in life has to be earned either through time or by merit.

Also the way insurance and liability issues go in the us there is no possible way that the motor manufacturers want kids freely purchasing large motors. Lawsuits have shaped our society in many ways, this is a prime example of it, the industry doesnt want to open themselves up in any way to being responsible for the momentary lapse in a minors judgement with their product. I dont care who you are we have all been there and turned a seemingly harmless item into something sinister :dark:. A well self regulated industry is the best industry, look at the esrb system in video games, had the industry not regulated at set their own age requirements the government would have and been much more invasive. That is the last thing this hobby needs.

Quit looking for the things you cant do and focus on what you can do. You can build a level 2 rocket, you can get involved with a club and prove to the certed guys that your building skills are solid enough for them sign the card. Or even build your level 2 rocket to be ready to fly the day you turn 18. Level 2 is fairly expensive once you get your motor hardware, reload, etc... so the longer you give yourself to build it the better chance you have of finding things on sale. You can scratch build a really cool mp or lp rocket. You can do anything you want, the only thing holding you back is you, especially before you gain the responsibilities of an adult.

Dont take this as an attack in anyway titan, but i think you have endless possibilities and the last thing to get hung up on, esp before you have your jr cert, is thinking "why cant i get a lvl 2 motor". Alot of places arent even letting minors buy spray paint, let alone a pretty large amount of propellant.

[ClayD]

A background check on a 14 to 17 y/o is pretty much useless. Hands down fact is in todays world there is no way the government, nor industry would loosen a restriction on age to buy hp motors. Minors are granted quite a bit of importance, free education that is your responsibility to pass that every adult pays for through taxes, youth organizations, and most of all preparing you to be productive adults and restricting potential dangers to help keep kids safe. It is not that us old guys think kids are all bad, or not important, everything in life has to be earned either through time or by merit.

Also the way insurance and liability issues go in the us there is no possible way that the motor manufacturers want kids freely purchasing large motors. Lawsuits have shaped our society in many ways, this is a prime example of it, the industry doesnt want to open themselves up in any way to being responsible for the momentary lapse in a minors judgement with their product. I dont care who you are we have all been there and turned a seemingly harmless item into something sinister :dark:. A well self regulated industry is the best industry, look at the esrb system in video games, had the industry not regulated at set their own age requirements the government would have and been much more invasive. That is the last thing this hobby needs.

Quit looking for the things you cant do and focus on what you can do. You can build a level 2 rocket, you can get involved with a club and prove to the certed guys that your building skills are solid enough for them sign the card. Or even build your level 2 rocket to be ready to fly the day you turn 18. Level 2 is fairly expensive once you get your motor hardware, reload, etc... so the longer you give yourself to build it the better chance you have of finding things on sale. You can scratch build a really cool mp or lp rocket. You can do anything you want, the only thing holding you back is you, especially before you gain the responsibilities of an adult.

Dont take this as an attack in anyway titan, but i think you have endless possibilities and the last thing to get hung up on, esp before you have your jr cert, is thinking "why cant i get a lvl 2 motor". Alot of places arent even letting minors buy spray paint, let alone a pretty large amount of propellant.

What are you going to do when someone says you cant fly... focus on somehting else you can do....???
I hate seeing rocketeers spend energy on telling other rocketeers they are incompetant and shouldnt be doing this hobby, escpecialy in a forum where you have no real clue of what they can do.

Minor's don't have to be able to buy propellant. Thier legal guardians can do that for them. I have to buy my sons A-J motors that he flys. Sometimes i prep them, some times he does... hes not really strong enough to clip the snap rings...

Who purchases the motor, is not a requirment for the certification, only who builds and preps the rocket. I have seen M motors given to people who couldn't afford to level3 otherwise. so.... that alone proves we are a cooporative group that likes ehancing others beyond what they can do on thier own.
why don't we take that road, and find a way to acknowlege achievement that does exist on our flying fields... we get the glory of successfull certs, how can TRA and NAR award success to anyone else who reaches a milestone of succes...
Its not that hard, why not put your energy to that?

[spacecadet]

There's an age limit in the UK on buying fireworks, but, as I once told a concerned forest warden before launching, BP motors aren't fireworks, are they?:eyepop:
That satisfied him as far as the 'no fireworks' byelaw was concerned. I wasn't launching a firework, so I could carry on. Of course, he was thereupon very interested in what was going on- and completely disarmed and converted A small lesson learned by both of us.

[ClayD]

There's an age limit in the UK on buying fireworks, but, as I once told a concerned forest warden before launching, BP motors aren't fireworks, are they?:eyepop:
That satisfied him as far as the 'no fireworks' byelaw was concerned. I wasn't launching a firework, so I could carry on. Of course, he was thereupon very interested in what was going on- and completely disarmed and converted A small lesson learned by both of us.

we get that too.. mainly my neighbors are the only ones that have ever said anything... Law Enforcement is usually to buisy speed trapping or .. whatever it is they really do...

But thats when you invite thier kid to come push the button... NULL issue...

[gagreen]

What are you going to do when someone says you cant fly... focus on somehting else you can do....???
I hate seeing rocketeers spend energy on telling other rocketeers they are incompetant and shouldnt be doing this hobby, escpecialy in a forum where you have no real clue of what they can do.

Minor's don't have to be able to buy propellant. Thier legal guardians can do that for them. I have to buy my sons A-J motors that he flys. Sometimes i prep them, some times he does... hes not really strong enough to clip the snap rings...

Who purchases the motor, is not a requirment for the certification, only who builds and preps the rocket. I have seen M motors given to people who couldn't afford to level3 otherwise. so.... that alone proves we are a cooporative group that likes ehancing others beyond what they can do on thier own.
why don't we take that road, and find a way to acknowlege achievement that does exist on our flying fields... we get the glory of successfull certs, how can TRA and NAR award success to anyone else who reaches a milestone of succes...
Its not that hard, why not put your energy to that?

Clayd you find the negative in everything, its a true skill. Certification is not for recognition of your great accomplishment in rocketry, there is no fanfare, no tickertape parade and no firework show. I never said purchasing the motor yourself was required. the post i was replying to was a minor whom said he wanted to be able to purchase and possess level 2 motors, golly it helps to read before flaming. I never ever said that accomplishments shouldnt go unseen, and they dont. Minors everywhere are building and flying rockets above their cert level, and they get the credit even tho someone elses name is on the card.

I never said that anyone was incompetent. I simply made a statement about liability and the insurance reasons why those under 18 cannot purchase motors. Never ever did i say that anyone could not build a level 2 rocket infact i said the opposite. As a minor yes you would have to do more to prove to the person taking responsibility for the flight that you are capable of building a well crafted rocket.

Step back off your high horse and read. I offered solid facts and reasonings behind age restrictions in america and rockets. I never told anyone that they were incapable. The only reason i tipped to quit worrying about what you cant do and focus on what you can do, is that focusing and stressing on what is against the rules can blind you to what you can do in the hobby as a minor. Age restrictions are a great way to keep politicians and outside control out of the hobby.

[Jclark]

We Just banned someone from flying at our field because we found out they were not building the rockets they were flying, they were being built by their 17 year old son. One of these rockets came in ballistic on a neighbors property because the person in question did not know how to properly set up an altimeter. As a result, we are in a holding Patern for flying High Power. There is a great deal of responsibility that comes with flying High Power, we have the responsibility to do everything in our power to make sure our rockets recover safely. Our Hobby depends on this to survive. These are adult responsibilities. The age limits are there for a reason.

Jeremy

[cjl]

Jclark: The person who flies the rockets doesn't need to be the one building them. They just need to be willing to be responsible for the flight (meaning they have to have enough confidence about the rocket's flightworthiness to be willing to put their name on it). There's no "builder of the model" rule in rocketry, except for cert flights.

[edwinshap1]

Jclark: The person who flies the rockets doesn't need to be the one building them. They just need to be willing to be responsible for the flight (meaning they have to have enough confidence about the rocket's flightworthiness to be willing to put their name on it). There's no "builder of the model" rule in rocketry, except for cert flights.

but if a 17 year old set up the altimeter bay, and the person signing off and claiming responsibility for the rocket can't figure out how it works...theres a problem.

i assume this person certified using the 17 year olds rocket which is why they were banned from flying.

[MarkII]

There was a discussion like this locally a while ago, and somebody brought up the fact that kids can be destructive and careless, their example was my red crayon rocket, that came in ballistic because I accidently plugged the delay well on a 29/240 case. What was my response? it could happen to ANYONE, it was just my day, accidents happen. I have probably had less accidents in my year of high power than some people around here have in a weekend. The only ones I can thing of are the delay well plugged, a snapped shock cord that wasn't long enough, and an O ring failure on my kosdon case.I don't wish to call into question your overall level of skill, which I acknowledge is not too shabby :cheers:, but I do want to point out that at least two of those accidents that you cited were pretty serious. So even if the number was low, the potential hazard was certainly up there. And isn't that what this discussion should also take into consideration - not simply the overall rate of accidents, but the much greater risk created by any major error in HPR?

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________

[OFF TOPIC] BTW, your accident rate for the past year may be less than that of some folks on a bad weekend, but in terms of potential risk and consequences it is still far greater than all of mine during 11 years of rocketry. And my total number for those years isn't much higher than your number for one year. :neener: ;) [/OFF TOPIC]

[cjl]

True, however I have to say that depending on the time period involved, that doesn't sound like an abnormally large quantity of errors. I know many fully adult HPR certified individuals who have a substantially worse record than that over a pretty short period of time. Could that record be improved upon? Absolutely, and everyone's goal in HPR should be to minimized any chance of a failure. Is that record indicative of incompetence? Not really, no. Also, the o-ring failure may or may not belong on that list. That can happen due to reasons not under the flier's control.

Edwinshap: I do agree with that. Whoever is signing off on the flight of a rocket should definitely be familiar enough with how it operates to have well-placed confidence in its chance of success. In other words, they should know how it works and why it shouldn't fail, rather than simply trusting the person who built it (especially if the person who built it is attempting something new).

[MarkII]

True, however I have to say that depending on the time period involved, that doesn't sound like an abnormally large quantity of errors. I know many fully adult HPR certified individuals who have a substantially worse record than that over a pretty short period of time. Could that record be improved upon? Absolutely, and everyone's goal in HPR should be to minimized any chance of a failure. Is that record indicative of incompetence? Not really, no. Also, the o-ring failure may or may not belong on that list. That can happen due to reasons not under the flier's control.I made it clear at the outset that I wasn't criticizing Upscaler's competence. Despite the fact that we have never met in person, I happen to know Braden rather well and I am quite impressed with his accomplishments (and he knows that*). My comment wasn't specific to him but was meant to highlight the fact that errors in HPR have to be taken much more seriously due to their much greater potential consequences.

I have not attended all that many HPR launches, but if the "normal" or "typical" frequency of accidents at them is anything like what I have seen described, then that really should be a cause for concern, regardless of who was doing the flying.

*P.S. The second part, which I clearly separated from the first and marked as "off topic," was less serious in tone and was meant as a little elbow poke in the ribs to a friend. I included a couple of emoticons at the end to help convey that sense.

[MarkII]

Anecdotes and affirmations are useful in that they attest to the potential that can be reached by at least some <18 y.o. rocket fliers. The level of sophistication that has been demonstrated by many of the younger members of this forum is amazing. But the rules regarding HP certification are not designed for specific individuals. Any version of the process will fail meet the personal needs of some individuals that are covered by them. The real gauge is whether they meet the needs of the majority of the people that they are meant for. Creating a system to enable opting out of or accelerating through the process would impose a tremendous burden on the certifying organizations, who would have to layer on multiple sets of procedures to add this flexibility while still maintaining responsible oversight. How many people do you think each organization has available to do all of this?

Although it may seem to a 16 year old like an eternity until he or she turns 18, in reality it is just a very short time when it is compared to the rest of the person's life. Young people should make sure to savor every moment of their youth and not be in such a rush to get past it, because in reality it is just the blink of an eye compared to the time they will spend as adults.

[ben_ullman]

We Just banned someone from flying at our field because we found out they were not building the rockets they were flying, they were being built by their 17 year old son. One of these rockets came in ballistic on a neighbors property because the person in question did not know how to properly set up an altimeter. As a result, we are in a holding Patern for flying High Power. There is a great deal of responsibility that comes with flying High Power, we have the responsibility to do everything in our power to make sure our rockets recover safely. Our Hobby depends on this to survive. These are adult responsibilities. The age limits are there for a reason.

Jeremy

one question about this. And I am only concerned with this specific problem.

Did the father not know how to set up the altimeter, or was it the son?

If it was an adult build it and flown it and he messed it up would he be banned also due to a ballistic recovery?

Ben

[gwolski]

one question about this. And I am only concerned with this specific problem.

Did the father not know how to set up the altimeter, or was it the son?

If it was an adult build it and flown it and he messed it up would he be banned also due to a ballistic recovery?

Ben

From the way I read the specific scenario that was presented, this is a basic safety issue, regardless of the age of one of the individuals. Both NAR and TRA safety codes and instructions empower the RSO to disallow ANY flight for safety reasons. IMO, age is a red herring in this case.

To chime in on the main issues:

1. Experience does not equal age (umpteen years of flying experience cannot make up for the fact that one is legally or otherwise underage).

and to be completely fair...

2. Age does not equal experience (just because I'm 40+ doesn't automatically mean I'm an experienced flier).

To borrow the overused cliche - rocketry is truly a journey and not a destination. Don't race - there really is no finish line!

Cheers!

[dave carver]

before you guys complain, move to california and try to launch an N, or launch a D reload without a california pyro class 3 license. yeah, all reloads, even 20 Ns ones require class 3 license since they are considered "experimental high power rocket motors". apparently a desert isn't safe enough...

Problem with this is there's nothing "experimental" about re-loadable motors, any more than re-loadable gun cartridges are. Off the shelf technology with reloads available through the mails, it's ridiculous. You can't call something commercially available "experimental" because you feel like it.

Experimental is a legal term. Definitions can not be skewed to fit. The law can be challenged on the basis of misinterpretation of a word. Experimental means just that, usually unique, one off, prototype. What is prototypical about a RMS motor? C'mon, even NASA uses a re-loadable motor casing with the SRB's.

Biggest problem is finding the money it takes to challenge a law unless you can find a group that takes on government causes because they can.

Cali government does it because no one says they can't.

[UPscaler]

I don't wish to call into question your overall level of skill, which I acknowledge is not too shabby :cheers:, but I do want to point out that at least two of those accidents that you cited were pretty serious. So even if the number was low, the potential hazard was certainly up there. And isn't that what this discussion should also take into consideration - not simply the overall rate of accidents, but the much greater risk created by any major error in HPR?

Mark,

I do agree that both those incidents I cited could have had some bad consequnces. My point was that they didn't happen because I was a kid, they happen because accidents happen. The crayon was ballistic because I accidently over greased the O rings on the delay grain in my H97 and it plugged the delay well,anyone could get a little crazy with the grease. we still aren't sure what went on with the kosdon case, except that it is known it was an o ring failure. It could have been my fault, or it might not have been, but we'll probably never get the answer to that.

Braden

[bobkrech]

Mark,

I do agree that both those incidents I cited could have had some bad consequences. My point was that they didn't happen because I was a kid, they happen because accidents happen. The crayon was ballistic because I accidentally over greased the O rings on the delay grain in my H97 and it plugged the delay well,anyone could get a little crazy with the grease. we still aren't sure what went on with the kosdon case, except that it is known it was an o ring failure. It could have been my fault, or it might not have been, but we'll probably never get the answer to that.

Braden
It really doesn't matter. Under NAR Jr. L1 certification rules, an 18 year old is not allowed to build a high power motor. Period.

The adult sponsor is the one responsible for a Jr. L1 certified person's flight, and is required to be the one who assembles and handles the motor, not the minor. If this was done at a NAR sanctioned launch, the sponsor nullified any insurance coverage on that flight so if the rocket had caused damage or injury, the sponsor and the club officers would be liable for the damage payments. The minor gets away scott free because (s)he is not legally liable.

We've been on the forum long enough to know that clubs have lost their high power fields because of incidents like this. Yes, adults do make mistakes, and that's what insurance is for, but for intentionally breaking NAR rules, and nullifying insurance coverage, I would have no problem throwing a high power certified adult out of my club after pulling a blantantly bonehead move that puts the existence of the club in jeopardy.

Bob

[WiK]

I want to move to Britain........


You really don't... Good launch sites are incredibly hard to come by, and what few motors we can get are stupidly expensive compared to US prices, so you probably wouldn't be able to afford to fly HPR, even though it's legal. ;)

[Rocketman248]

But your tea is sooo much better! :cheers:

[UPscaler]

one question about this. And I am only concerned with this specific problem.

Did the father not know how to set up the altimeter, or was it the son?

If it was an adult build it and flown it and he messed it up would he be banned also due to a ballistic recovery?

Ben

I'm curious about that as well. Also, what is wrong with someone flying somebody else's rocket? As long as it's not a cert flight I'm pretty sure there is no rule against it.


Braden

[edwinshap1]

Problem with this is there's nothing "experimental" about re-loadable motors, any more than re-loadable gun cartridges are. Off the shelf technology with reloads available through the mails, it's ridiculous. You can't call something commercially available "experimental" because you feel like it.

Experimental is a legal term. Definitions can not be skewed to fit. The law can be challenged on the basis of misinterpretation of a word. Experimental means just that, usually unique, one off, prototype. What is prototypical about a RMS motor? C'mon, even NASA uses a re-loadable motor casing with the SRB's.

Biggest problem is finding the money it takes to challenge a law unless you can find a group that takes on government causes because they can.

Cali government does it because no one says they can't.



i was talkin to some guys at a launch, and they said the problem with fixing the rules for rocketry also mean allowing the fireworks rules to go along with the national guidelines, and that would be a very bad thing, especially in southern california.

fires can last weeks...i went swimming a few years back, last time i did...i got out and was covered in ash. the fires were about 90 miles southeast, yet the pool i was at had a layer of nastiness over it.

it definitely sucks, but i'll deal with it until they can figure out something better.:sad:

[Jclark]

I'm curious about that as well. Also, what is wrong with someone flying somebody else's rocket? As long as it's not a cert flight I'm pretty sure there is no rule against it.


Braden

I don't know the whole story, and while the flight in question was not a cert flight, i think the kid certified under his fathers name. That is a gross violation of the rules. I remember talking to the father on a few ocasions, and he seemed to have no knowledge of rocketry. People are in too much of a hurry, you could spend a whole lifetime just flying low power, and never learn everything there is to know. Kids should work there way up learning as much as they can about low power, then mid power before even thinking about high power. That experience will make them better flyers. This ones a little off topic, but i also don't like the idea of people doing all three certifications in one weekend. This undermines the whole purpose for having a certification process.

Jeremy

[ClayD]

I don't know the whole story, and while the flight in question was not a cert flight, i think the kid certified under his fathers name. That is a gross violation of the rules. I remember talking to the father on a few ocasions, and he seemed to have no knowledge of rocketry. People are in too much of a hurry, you could spend a whole lifetime just flying low power, and never learn everything there is to know. Kids should work there way up learning as much as they can about low power, then mid power before even thinking about high power. That experience will make them better flyers. This ones a little off topic, but i also don't like the idea of people doing all three certifications in one weekend. This undermines the whole purpose for having a certification process.

Jeremy

I completely agree... I think there should be a 12 month minimum from 1 to 3..
not that it hasnt taken me 4 years to get to l3 certs.

But i still think, just like kids grow up racing, hunting, any other hobby. RocketKIDS, at 15 to 17 are just as good as any adult with experience.

There's little to almost no difference in a versed 15 yearold loading a H180 vs G80.

So, if you don't let the 15 yearold whos been flying for 10 years L1 at some point on his own... i wouldnt mind him doing a L1 and 2 in the same day when he turns 18... not a problem in the world... any 17 yearold, can find taps and even begin thier L3 project, without ever having any other certificaiton. (probably need to be a member L0 of tra...)
that may not be how the certification was intended, but seing as how they are left out, the few that actualy do persue and accomplish finding and getting taps, and L3 project before ever flying a L1 cert... PROPs... its hard to do. My guess, is that the kids that do that are well known, and the taps are probably very confident in the flyers ability. Taps have no problem saying. "i wont sign off on that".

I can wait... my son is 5.... we fly everything together.... I hope we have fun group projects in the future, i can wait a decade for the "REAL" BIG ones...
Till then, We fly A-M , and this year he is helping me with an N....

[MarkII]

So, if you don't let the 15 yearold whos been flying for 10 years L1 at some point on his own... i wouldnt mind him doing a L1 and 2 in the same day when he turns 18... not a problem in the world... any 17 yearold, can find taps and even begin thier L3 project, without ever having any other certificaiton. (probably need to be a member L0 of tra...)
that may not be how the certification was intended, but seing as how they are left out, the few that actualy do persue and accomplish finding and getting taps, and L3 project before ever flying a L1 cert... PROPs... its hard to do. My guess, is that the kids that do that are well known, and the taps are probably very confident in the flyers ability. Taps have no problem saying. "i wont sign off on that".

I can wait... my son is 5.... we fly everything together.... I hope we have fun group projects in the future, i can wait a decade for the "REAL" BIG ones...
Till then, We fly A-M , and this year he is helping me with an N....There is no regulation that limits what a minor can build. If a 15 year old wanted to build an 13" diameter x 25' behemoth, and install motor tubes for a central 6" motor surrounded by four 75mm motor tubes, he or she would not need any permission from any certifying organization. Certification comes into play when the builder decides to attempt to actually launch the beast on some combination of motors, even if that array does not include any that are designated as high power.

The need to wait until the 18th anniversary of one's birth before being able to be fully certified for high power isn't an impossible hardship as some imply. Believe it or not, the interval is actually survivable. Thousands of people had done it.

[MarkII]

Something that keeps coming to mind in this discussion is the irony of all of those adults who have abandoned high power rocketry in favor of building and launching MicroMaxx-scale rockets or competing in NAR meets. They did it because flying stuff on L, M and N motors just didn't provide them with any challenges and they weren't learning anything new. :wink:

[cjl]

If flying L, M, and N motors didn't provide them with any challenges, then they weren't taking advantage of all the possibilities. There are a lot of amazing, challenging things that can be done with large rockets. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of amazing things that people do with small rockets too, but IMHO, there are just as many (if not more) challenges available with the large motors as with the small ones.

[ClayD]

Something that keeps coming to mind in this discussion is the irony of all of those adults who have abandoned high power rocketry in favor of building and launching MicroMaxx-scale rockets or competing in NAR meets. They did it because flying stuff on L, M and N motors just didn't provide them with any challenges and they weren't learning anything new. :wink:

Mark, i have some micromaxx... we fly in Kansas, and i tell you.... in Kansas calm, a C motor lands a long ways off...I wouldnt launch micromaxx out there.

But your right, it doesnt have to be HPR to be - fun, educational, or ...fun


Certification comes into play when the builder decides to attempt to actually launch the beast on some combination of motors, even if that array does not include any that are designated as high power.

you mean the rocket has total installed impulse classifying it by tra and Nar guidlines as HPR>? Or are you talking about Faa waiver requirments for Class 2. - or even class 3
operating in club bylaws, and under regulation are different... i do both forms of flying... I have very fun neighbors with farmland, so we fly a lot of class1, that is tra and Nar hpr... but the flights are not affiliated...(i am very lucky guy)

where i live there are no certifications or licenses required for flying rockets. just a waiver...(this is what keeps me traveling for class 2 rockets.)


Every club I see promotes youth endevors... so this thread is a little imbisilic in its existance. theres enough room for old geezers, all the way down to kids...

[MarkII]

Mark,

I do agree that both those incidents I cited could have had some bad consequnces. My point was that they didn't happen because I was a kid, they happen because accidents happen. The crayon was ballistic because I accidently over greased the O rings on the delay grain in my H97 and it plugged the delay well,anyone could get a little crazy with the grease. we still aren't sure what went on with the kosdon case, except that it is known it was an o ring failure. It could have been my fault, or it might not have been, but we'll probably never get the answer to that.

BradenI did understand that and I didn't attribute your accidents to your age. My point wasn't about you in particular; I used your description of your accidents to point out that the potential impact of accidents goes up considerably with the jump to high power. As a result, the certification process is not trivial and should not be watered down or made quicker or easier.

You and your father are both progressing nicely in your skills, and the two of you are a fine example of what is good about this hobby. My hat is off to both of you.

[Rocketman248]

... I have very fun neighbors with farmland, so we fly a lot of class1, that is tra and Nar hpr... but the flights are not affiliated...(i am very lucky guy)

where i live there are no certifications or licenses required for flying rockets. just a waiver...(this is what keeps me traveling for class 2 rockets.)...

Regardless of where you're flying, HPR motors still require certification. In another thread, you accused me of wanting to bring bad press to our hobby, yet here you readily admit that you are operating outside of the rules.

[UPscaler]

You and your father are both progressing nicely in your skills, and the two of you are a fine example of what is good about this hobby. My hat is off to both of you.

Mark,
Thank you very much!



Braden

[ClayD]

Regardless of where you're flying, HPR motors still require certification. In another thread, you accused me of wanting to bring bad press to our hobby, yet here you readily admit that you are operating outside of the rules.(??? i dont remember that)

out side of what rules....
There are currently 4 Authority having jurisdicitons in my state over rocketry activities, when i fly and have motors, i comply with all of them.
None of them require certification to fly a FAA class 2 rocket. None of them require certification to fly a class 1 rocket, that is defined by the hobby as high power.
Where i live you can launch upwards near 890,000ns which is the cap for class 3, with no certificaitons....

Commercial, or "garage" made motors are the same under my local laws.
Do you think ATK, certifies its commercial motors... NO.... Do you think Roxel certifies its motors... NO....

I comply and promote all our bylaws, when I am at a santioned launch.

[JDcluster]

They don't need to be certified because they are not being sold to the general public....


I take it you live in Nevada?

In that case why do bother with the NAR or Tripoli then?
You obviously don't like to follow the rules they set forth.
Just go out into the desert and fly your heart out.




JD



(??? i dont remember that)

out side of what rules....
There are currently 4 Authority having jurisdictions in my state over rocketry activities, when i fly and have motors, i comply with all of them.
None of them require certification to fly a FAA class 2 rocket. None of them require certification to fly a class 1 rocket, that is defined by the hobby as high power.
Where i live you can launch upwards near 890,000ns which is the cap for class 3, with no certifications....

Commercial, or "garage" made motors are the same under my local laws.
Do you think ATK, certifies its commercial motors... NO.... Do you think Roxel certifies its motors... NO....

I comply and promote all our bylaws, when I am at a santioned launch.

[JDcluster]

It took me 6 months to go from L1 to L2 then 5 years between L2 and L3.
I didn't certify till I was 20.
There is a difference: a 15 yo is not liable for what they do.


I stopped counting how many different ways it's been spelled out for you.
You can disagree all you want, but until they change those rules that you dislike; the answer will still be the same.

This thread has beaten the horse enough.


JD



I completely agree... I think there should be a 12 month minimum from 1 to 3..
not that it hasnt taken me 4 years to get to l3 certs.

But i still think, just like kids grow up racing, hunting, any other hobby. RocketKIDS, at 15 to 17 are just as good as any adult with experience.

There's little to almost no difference in a versed 15 year old loading a H180 vs G80.

So, if you don't let the 15 year old whos been flying for 10 years L1 at some point on his own... i wouldnt mind him doing a L1 and 2 in the same day when he turns 18... not a problem in the world... any 17 yearold, can find taps and even begin thier L3 project, without ever having any other certificaiton. (probably need to be a member L0 of tra...)
that may not be how the certification was intended, but seing as how they are left out, the few that actualy do persue and accomplish finding and getting taps, and L3 project before ever flying a L1 cert... PROPs... its hard to do. My guess, is that the kids that do that are well known, and the taps are probably very confident in the flyers ability. Taps have no problem saying. "i wont sign off on that".

I can wait... my son is 5.... we fly everything together.... I hope we have fun group projects in the future, i can wait a decade for the "REAL" BIG ones...
Till then, We fly A-M , and this year he is helping me with an N....

[MClark]

(??? i dont remember that)

snipped
Do you think ATK, certifies its commercial motors... NO.... Do you think Roxel certifies its motors... NO....
.

Actually they do, not with TRA or NAR but with whoever the customer is, AF Navy NASA.
I worked at a place that made motors for mostly escape systems. When we had a new product we sent "First Articles" to be fired by the customer, and then fired samples from each lot as we produced them and sent the results to the customer. This is similar to sending motors to TRA or NAR.
On most of the seat back motors we made them 12 in a bucket and fired at least one from each bucket.

Mark

[ClayD]

They don't need to be certified because they are not being sold to the general public....


I take it you live in Nevada?

In that case why do bother with the NAR or Tripoli then?
You obviously don't like to follow the rules they set forth.
Just go out into the desert and fly your heart out.




JD

High power rocket motors arent sold to the general public.... whats your point.

No, I dont live in Nevada.
Clark county is one of the most regulated counties in the united states.


You obviously don't like to follow the rules they set forth.

where do you get that...?

why do I affiliate with TRA, because I like the club, i like the club i fly at. It actually supports the hobby beyond myself, and allows me to fly bigger and higher than i could on my own...

[bobkrech]

Do you think ATK, certifies its commercial motors... NO.... Do you think Roxel certifies its motors... NO....
Please don't insult our intelligence. Commercial rocket motors do undergo certification testing, and it makes our hobby rocket motor certifications look like a joke. For example, certified hobby rocket motors are required to have a total impulse standard deviation of +/-6.7%, and a worst case of +/-20%. This does not cut it for commercial motors where +/- 1/2% total impulse variation under any environmental circumstance is expected.

When S&T, TMT or MTC certify hobby rocket motors, we test a very limited number of motors, and in the case of high power motors, only 3 L1 or L2 motors and 2 L3 motors of a given type, and if they perform as the manufactures says they do, and the instructions are clearly written, and the motors are properly labeled, they get certified. After the initial certification, the task of QC to insure that the current production lots meet these same specification is left totally up to the manufacturer. The manufacturers are supposed to test fire 2% of their production, and destroy or fix all lots that fail to meet the original specifications, but there is no way the certifying authorities can verify that this is being done, and no consequences if it is not done.

Not so with commercial motors where failure is not an option. Both the government and commercial launch services require the manufacturer to guarantee the performance of their motors when over a billion dollars can be lost in a hardware failure. The amount of static fire tests at various propellant temperatures to fully characterize them, and the amount of paperwork to document the testing is unbelievable.

Consider the Shuttle SRB. Each cost $23,200,000. Over the years there have been about 4 Shuttle launches a year consuming 8 SRMs. ATK test fires 2 per year. That's 20% or 1 out of 5 SRMs they produce.

Consider the Minuteman III missile system. Several per year are randomly taken out of an active silo, hauled to Vandenberg, and launched to Kwajalein Atoll. Since 1971, there have been 200 Minuteman III operational test launches from Vandenberg, an average of 5 per year for an ICBM force of 450 Minuteman III missiles, or 1% per year of the operational force. I believe the propellant is good for 20 years, and if so, 1 our of 5 made is test-fired over the operational lifetime of the system.

Similar test programs exist for the Trident missiles on active submarines.

Mil-spec production and DoD QA lot testing costs big money, more than most hobbyists are willing to pay, but when lives are at risk, failure is not an option. A recent thread on TRF reveals the street price of processed hobby certified APCP is ~$125 per kg. whether it comes from AT or CTI. Believe it or not, this is what we are paying for it. And our hobby APCP motors are cheap compared to commercial and mil-spec motors of the same impulse. This is due to the amount of certification testing the commercial and mil-spec motors are required to go through and pass. Believe it or not, a hobby APCP reload that we pay $25 for becomes an $800 mil-spec single use motor when manufactured, packaged and lot-tested to DoD requirements!

Bob

[ClayD]

Actually they do, not with TRA or NAR but with whoever the customer is, AF Navy NASA.
I worked at a place that made motors for mostly escape systems. When we had a new product we sent "First Articles" to be fired by the customer, and then fired samples from each lot as we produced them and sent the results to the customer. This is similar to sending motors to TRA or NAR.
On most of the seat back motors we made them 12 in a bucket and fired at least one from each bucket.

Mark

Thats cool. I wasnt making the statement, that they dont have quality procedures in the industry. But, that in purpouse commercialy produced rocket motors, are commercialy produced rocket motors.
the industry, in commericial rockets"defence and space" or even commercial space "armadillo" and hpr, has set up its own system for quality and rating. really, the end user in all cases, only modifies the manufacturers liability, IMO doesnt necessarily modify the quality or certifying aspect of the motors.

I think i completely botched that. but hopefully you get my point.

The point being, that if ClayD buisness owner produces a rocket powered drone, commercialy available to a customer, at no point would the motor have be outside certified. If its my product liability. My customer expectations are my own, and whatever we agree to is done.
If that is the case, then in any state a buisness is exempt of the HPR certifiers... so is the citizen.

[ClayD]

Please don't insult our intelligence.
Bob

:y:

Regardless of where you're flying, HPR motors still require certification.

Lets place it back into the frame i was responding to when i said what i said.

Please, I wasnt insulting you or Mark Clark...

commercially produced motors do not require HPR certification.
Both ROXEL and ATK, make motors that emulate near our hobby end as far as impulse...
Sure its far more expensive... as you so eliquantly explained.

[Agent Titan]

May I be formally and politely excused from this discussion?

Thank you.

[gagreen]

Dude, clayd, UMADBRO? Let me step down to your level of why, why, why, whine, whine, whine. Every single educated answer you get you have some kind of personal vendetta to anhilate with your ub3r intell and ethuggin. Haters gonna hate.

I spent the past 4 days flying with kids from 5 to 15 and not one of them or their parents thought it was a good idea for minors to be flying hpr as freely as adults. My hpr static display booth was filled with questions by adults asking me if kids were allowed to use the hp motors. When i answered "no" they always said "o that is good, those look dangerous". I followed any thoughts of danger with safety stats as compared to sports, biking, and walking. I handed out nar safety guidlines etc, and whammo parents who were looking at the hobby for the first time went from thoughts of danger, to how does someone use rocketry to aid in an education while being an activity to enjoy as a family, not "o well i would get into it only if the cert age was lower". A younger cert age would adversely effect the public outlook on the hobby, to the uneducated a j looks as powerful as an AIM-9, and allowing youth to be at that level would look like an unnecessary risk. 18 is that age that gives adults a warm fuzzy, because now that person is "responsible".

LPR is fun, MPR is fun, HPR is fun, why cant we enjoy the hobby as it is, loosely regulated by the industry/community, kids having a good time with their parents, and being a part of the great community that is rocketry. I am sorry for the kids who could and most positively do handle and build above their "allowed" level, I really am, but there are age requirements in Everything. Insurance would not cover a minor hpr level 2 or 3 cheaply. I am sure there was quite a bit of red tape just to get the jr hpr cert program.

There are much bigger things to fight for. Keeping the general hobby of rocketry alive is a feat in a post 9/11 america, we dont need the in fighting and bickering esp on a public forum. In all honesty of the paid members of either organization I would like to see how many of them are minors currently, no pay no voice, that is a harsh reality for some but if you are not a paying member of an organization you have no say. And membership would not go up by much if ages were lower, the jr hpr members would probably move up but it would not be a huge recruiting tool as there are not currently a whole lot of jr hpr's anyway. I gave the nice answer and i gave the gritty answer, now lets lock this up and throw away the key. this thread is just treading water now

[ClayD]

:rofl:
May I be formally and politely excused from this discussion?

Thank you.

NO, I disagree...

[WiK]

The point being, that if ClayD buisness owner produces a rocket powered drone, commercialy available to a customer, at no point would the motor have be outside certified. If its my product liability. My customer expectations are my own, and whatever we agree to is done.
If that is the case, then in any state a buisness is exempt of the HPR certifiers... so is the citizen.

I may be completely wrong here, but isn't hobby motor certification by NAR, TRA or CAR more for the purposes of flights being covered by the NAR, TRA or CAR insurance, rather than some legal requirement in order to be able to sell them?

[troj]

I may be completely wrong here, but isn't hobby motor certification by NAR, TRA or CAR more for the purposes of flights being covered by the NAR, TRA or CAR insurance, rather than some legal requirement in order to be able to sell them?

Not in NFPA states.

In NFPA states, commercial motors must be certified.

-Kevin

[ClayD]

I may be completely wrong here, but isn't hobby motor certification by NAR, TRA or CAR more for the purposes of flights being covered by the NAR, TRA or CAR insurance, rather than some legal requirement in order to be able to sell them?

California is a great example of how a state can require a legal certificaiton of a motor. Aerotech and Cti, anyone else, must obtain OSFM approvals on thier product. - thats how its supposed to be people!!!!!
The states have delegated juristiction to the firemarshal to provide the public safety.

In the case of NFPA, you can adopt codes as state code, but just like california have to deligate a certifying authority. HAVE TO DELIGATE A CERTIFYING AUTHORITY. Most states dont breach that principal. California does. i have attached Massachucets which has a great document of how it was deligated.

Most states adopt by refrence, which means they adopt what they want when they want, and are accepted guidelines as JD calls them. "by refrence" is not by law. and is not able to stand up if properly addressed. I adopt things into contracts by refrence, it means i look at it and give it creedence, but dont have to adheare to it.

Unbenownced to Kevin, It is unlawful for state code or official to require a "person" to commence in interstate commerce like joining tra.
Its escpecialy true when its in non-commercial personal pursuit.

But Wik, you hit the nail on the head... There are exceptions to every rule... and in principal you are correct.

I navigate the muddy waters of NFPA every day... if you google it "nfpa veuge and unenforcable". you will see states that adopt it, do so to protect the public, but isnt worth the paper its written on for legality. some do it better than others.

I support TRA and NFPA, my familly has two memebers - soon 3 will be members of the first, and 1 of the second...
1 keeps us flying, and the other saves lives...

The pee match between can you leegaly fly hpr without certification in a state is rediculous.

[daveyfire]

if you google it "nfpa veuge and unenforcable". you will see states that adopt it, do so to protect the public, but isnt worth the paper its written on for legality.

http://david.tdkpropulsion.com/xPhotos/trf/nfpa.png

[THarrison]

http://david.tdkpropulsion.com/xPhotos/trf/nfpa.png


LOL

Reese wins this thread.

:cheers:

[ClayD]

David, do you live in china where it is filtered?

[cjl]

David just won the thread, definitely :D

[Rex R]

David's point was; if a person asks others to use a particular search term, it should be spelled in such a manner that will yield the same results that the op got...in this case google offered an alterative that worked...it doesn't always.
rex

[THarrison]

David, do you live in china where it is filtered?

No, but David does live in a country with spell check. You should look into buying some real estate. :rofl:

[ClayD]

No, but David does live in a country with spell check. You should look into buying some real estate. :rofl:

Actually yeah, bank of america is getting ther affidavits of high center... BUY BUY BUY... the market is about to be FLLLOOOOODDED...

My google country allows alternative spelling searches to automaticly search the other spellings, so i dont have to know, or loose otherwise valuable information based on a few typos based on my or the articles error...

BUT, in the spirit of its post... DAVID WINS... i agree...

what is the score anyway?

[butalane]

what is the score anyway?

It depends...

[ClayD]

on if...
the scoreboard is on....one or the other?

[Rocketman248]

It depends...

Subtle play on the Q-motor thread. Nicely played. ;)

[ben_ullman]

If only Steve Heller were here......

[THarrison]

If only Steve Heller were here......

:D:D:D

[H_Rocket]

Wonder who he borrowed the hat from?

[edwinshap1]

this thread is getting unenforcable:kill:


Not in NFPA states.

In NFPA states, commercial motors must be certified.

-Kevin

in california, the motor doesn't have to be classified or certified, but you do XD

pyro class 3 to launch a motor, class 2 to transfer and class 1 to manufacture, or maybe 2 is, idk, i only know you need only class 3 (like countdown) to launch reloads.

so yeah, you can get an O8000, get special waiver from Ca OSFM to launch a larger motor than a full M, and get the FAA waiver, all without spending $60 on a useless hobby rocketry permit :D


on that note, in cali, with pyro and ATF permits, you can launch experimental motors if youo've got the waiver...again without certs. but then again, its easier to find a tra research launch and drive a few hours than deal with the california state government:eyeroll:

[troj]

this thread is getting unenforcable:kill:



in california, the motor doesn't have to be classified or certified, but you do XD

pyro class 3 to launch a motor, class 2 to transfer and class 1 to manufacture, or maybe 2 is, idk, i only know you need only class 3 (like countdown) to launch reloads.

so yeah, you can get an O8000, get special waiver from Ca OSFM to launch a larger motor than a full M, and get the FAA waiver, all without spending $60 on a useless hobby rocketry permit :D


on that note, in cali, with pyro and ATF permits, you can launch experimental motors if youo've got the waiver...again without certs. but then again, its easier to find a tra research launch and drive a few hours than deal with the california state government:eyeroll:

Doesn't the motor have to be OSFM approved to be flown in CA?

-Kevin