Estes SpaceShipOne RC

[kjohnson]

Building on my earlier RC conversion of the Cosmos Mariner (http://oldrocketforum.com/showthread.php?t=5221&highlight=cosmos+mariner), I'm continuing the wacky trend by converting one of the E sized foam SpaceShipOne models.

This project wouldn't have happened without an amazing sale on the kits at my local hobby shop (thanks Rokitflite) and the upcomming FooseFest to get me motivated.

The conversion consists of reinforcing the tail booms with some carbon rod.
Adding servos to the tail booms to control the elevators (as tailerons).
Creating control surfaces from the included stabilizers.
Removing the parachute compartment and recovery harness.
Adding the receiver and battery to the model.

Here's some photos and a video to show the progress so far. I'm aiming for October 10th for the first rocket powered flight. Will have some glide testing hopefully next weekend.

kj

kTa3Wx9W8TY

[kjohnson]

Based on my test glides, I've set the CG for the first flight to just behind the 33% chord line. Hopefully that makes a nice stable boost and controllable glide.

Should be fun either way!

kj

[rokitflite]

I will cheer for you from under the most sturdy tent on the field.:D

[zog139]

I will cheer for you from under the most sturdy tent on the field.:D

I'm guessing you'll be standing behind me saying "Jim stand right there and don't move !"
:pop:

[Daddyisabar]

Can’t wait to hear of and see another successful SS1E modification! It has flown on the F24 with aluminum rod reinforcement on another thread and he will soon fly it on a 3 AP motor cluster. Maybe, just maybe, with all of these successful modifications they will let me fly my stock built SS1E again at a club launch, but only after the fire bans are lifted here in the West. Many warm, sunny & clam days to launch, but way to dry to risk even the slightest failure. After nearly a month and a half of no launching I am getting the model rocket blues and a bad case of black powder DTs. You guys have it so good on the rather soggy East Coast.

With this kit under $20 it is finally receiving some LOVE. No longer will I be able to call it a polystyrene horror show, rather, the SS1E and Cosmos Mariner will be lifted from the ranks of the banned. What a glorious day it will be! Now all I need is some Sunward Flying Umbrella LOVE and a little rain to fall and things will be much better here on the high prairie. :)

[rstaff3]

Cool project Kev! Hope to see it in the flesh one day.

[kjohnson]

If things go well on the 10th and I don't crash it into Jim or Scott, I'm planning on having it at the November NARHAMS launch since it's the glider/RCRG theme launch. You can check it out there, Dick.

kj

[rstaff3]

Cool. I'm glad the QT flight will be complete. My knee is killing me and I may not be able to perform evasive maneuvers...like quickly jumping behind Jim :)

[georgegassaway]

Will it have landing gear that deploys?

Sorry, I kept getting questions like that for my X-1 and shuttle models...... :)

Good luck with it. I think you can pull it off.

- George Gassaway

[MaxQ]

Will it have landing gear that deploys?

Sorry, I kept getting questions like that for my X-1 and shuttle models...... :)

Good luck with it. I think you can pull it off.

- George Gassaway

People just love the idea of retracts....
Matters not the added complexity, or weight.

[kjohnson]

Will it have landing gear that deploys?


Well it's not like I don't have a spare channel with that monster rx that I used. :)

For those of you that are interested in the gear that I used-
rx= Spektrum AR7000 DSM2 (yeah 7 channels, but it was what I had lying around)
servos= Blue Arrow 4.2g (x2)
battery= 150mah nimh 4 cell pack (from cheapbatterypacks.com)
4 servo extensions (2 per servo)
tx= JR 9303 w/ Spektrum module.

kj

[bcanino]

Will it have landing gear that deploys?


You know, that what I thought when I saw your model. Not because I think landing gear retracts are cool, but because the decals have the reacts area so well defined.

[kjohnson]

Had 3 good flights yesterday with the RC SSOne. All the flights were made using the AT E6 RC reload, and each flight required some piloting on boost. Still a couple of kinks to be worked out in the boost trim, but I'm happy with how it was working.

Pics and video should be coming in the next couple of days.

kj

[Clipper]

congrats!!! How's the return glide?

[rokitflite]

Had 3 good flights yesterday with the RC SSOne. All the flights were made using the AT E6 RC reload, and each flight required some piloting on boost. Still a couple of kinks to be worked out in the boost trim, but I'm happy with how it was working.

Pics and video should be coming in the next couple of days.

kj

Welllllllll, to be honest Kevin, 1 "good" flight, 1 "Oh my God thats totally cool!!!" flight and 1 "Well, looks like this is the end... Wow! He saved it!" flight... The last of which never seemed to get more than 20 feet off of the ground :eek:.

[kjohnson]

Welllllllll, to be honest Kevin, 1 "good" flight, 1 "Oh my God thats totally cool!!!" flight and 1 "Well, looks like this is the end... Wow! He saved it!" flight... The last of which never seemed to get more than 20 feet off of the ground :eek:.

A good flight is one you can walk away from.

Or in my case, one where you aren't taking the model home in a trash bag. :)

The model is verrrrry sensitive in roll, which I expected, but the glide was fast and easy to control otherwise. When I get a chance to post a video of the 2nd flight, you'll hear a comment about how fast it was gliding.

kj

[Daddyisabar]

Had 3 good flights yesterday with the RC SSOne. All the flights were made using the AT E6 RC reload, and each flight required some piloting on boost. Still a couple of kinks to be worked out in the boost trim, but I'm happy with how it was working.
kj

All the "real thing" needed was some piloting on boost. It loves to roll as well. Extra scale flight points! Of the three non controlled SS1E flights I have seen two have been horizontal 20 -30 foot jobs ending 200+ yards away in a skid mark or fire. With RC it looks like you have brought it to two flights up for every flight level and with more tweaking that ratio will improve. Good Luck! Maybe the wayward SS1E has finally found a loving home with the RC guys.

[georgegassaway]

Congrats on getting it to work.

Some ideas about the roll issues.

A model that small in span is going to roll easily. Especially when it takes off, if you are using a rod, then rod whip will make it roll most of the time. I found this out really early when I was trying to do my first “big” R/C shuttle, when the model rolled on liftoff due to the 1/4” rod whipping, and the roll was too fast for me to try to correct it.

So, I went to a rail launcher instead of a rod, and that solved the liftoff-induced roll problem. It was still sensitive to rolling after liftoff, but at least it got off to a good start.

BTW - most rail buttons meant for HPR have too much friction for “small models”. My favorite lug for rails is to use plastic “H-Beam”, as from Plastruct or Evergreen. 3/8” Plastruct H beam works for most rails with a 1/4” gap. It is a very loose fit, so it slides super-easy with minimal friction

I am a bit surprised you did not do any D7 boosts first? I know you know, but for those who do not know, a D7 reload has exactly the same thrust curve as an E6 at first, but burns for only about 3 seconds rather than 7-8 seconds.

Going back to my R/C shuttle stuff, the first 1/72 orbiter I did, it had maybe 1/8” up and 1/8” down throw in aileron. That turned out to be way too much. After boost, when it went into a glide and I started to turn it, it did a complete 360 degree roll in response to the aileron input. I let go of the aileron stick and just let the orbiter glide free-flight for the rest of the flight, not daring to try to turn it anymore. I made adjustments to reduce the throw REALLY small, something like 1/32” up and 1/32” down for the aileron throw (for elevator it was a LO more, of course). And even that total of 1/16” was sort of a lot as far as how responsive the orbiter was on roll.

What amount of aileron throw do you have on it now? For boost? On nearly all of my R/C RBG’s, I use low rates for boost, so the control surfaces do not move as much for the high speed boost phase as they later do for glide phase. If the model is roll sensitive in glide too, and not just boost, then perhaps you first need to reduce the total aileron throw to begin with. And then whatever the result of that is, reduce the throw more for the boost phase such as using low rates.

The only problem would be if you reduced the throw to such a small amount that if the model was not trimmed correctly, and wanted to roll say to the left, that you did not have enough aileron throw to make it turn to the right to maintain control (and for the aileron trim lever to have enough authority to correct it during the glide down on that flight.

Once you get things sorted out, you ought to be able to nail down the aileron trim for the boost phase, so that if you get good clean liftoff from a rail launcher, the model should not try to roll (much) in any particular direction, since you would have that roll trim worked out. Once you get that boost roll worked out, then do not mess with it. Even if during glide it may want to say pull to the right, because if you gave left trim to make it glide straight, you’d end up causing it to roll to the left on boost. The most likely scenario to cause a model to pull to one side in glide after it is trimmed not to roll on boost would be to have one wing heavier than the other. Well, on a conventional model, it would be the wing weight, right wing heavier than left wing, for example. On this model, being molded like it is, in theory it should be perfectly balanced laterally. But as-built, something might have creeped in to add an extra gram or two to one “wingtip”. Of course on this model the “wingtip” also includes the twin tailbooms, control surfaces, servos, wires, and the graphite reinforcements you added. If one side is a bit heavier than the other, then the fix usually is to add weight to the “light side” so it will balance equally laterally.

If I was doing this, an extra concern I would have would be to tell top from bottom visually on a bad boost. On a shuttle orbiter it is easy, since the orbiter is black on the bottom and white on top. And on my non-scale R/C models, I usually have different colors on top and bottom. For the 2X R/C SkyDart, I cheated a little bit, I added dark blue trim monokote to the outer 1/3 of the bottom of the wings. So if I was doing an SS-1 R/C, I’d probably make the bottom of the wings black so I could tell which side was up (or down) if things got bad.

- George Gassaway

[kjohnson]

It was partially your experiences George that made me anticipate the "snappy" roll response. That made me ready to react the right way when I saw it happening.

I added some stripes to the bottom of the wing using some black electrical tape to help with the visual orientation.

I didn't do a D7 boost for the simple reason that I didn't have any D7's :) I thought about making a boost with an E9-P but figured I'd be able to get myself out of any trouble. Also since you know me, I'm more of a try it out see if it works kinda guy. :)

I did us a rod, instead of a rail, and luckily didn't have any roll issues on boost. The biggest issue I had was with the model pitching up on boost - and that was more of an issue because I was trying to go for a vertical rod.

Oh- and I gradually removed some of the nose weight over the 3 flights and the final glide CG was closer to 50% root chord. Still in front of it but closer to 50 than 30%.

So for my next flights, I'm going to try and do the following (if I can figure out the mixes)- Boost Mode- less throw for aileron and dialed in more down elevator.
- Glide Mode- less throw for aileron and remove the dialed in down elevator.

This is actually the first time I've had a taileron plane in my radio so I'll probably have to check out RCGroups to find the programming I'll need. I know I'm not using the best mix in the world as I tried to do some subtrim adjustments and they didn't do exactly what I thought they would. The beauty of having a radio like the the 9303 is that there's lots of folks out there who do a lot of programming.

kj

[stantonjtroy]

Welllllllll, to be honest Kevin, 1 "good" flight, 1 "Oh my God thats totally cool!!!" flight and 1 "Well, looks like this is the end... Wow! He saved it!" flight... The last of which never seemed to get more than 20 feet off of the ground :eek:.

The second one was OOOBER COOL!!! Especially the woosh as it went by. Frankly I'm amazed Kevin held it on the 3rd flight. Kevin you are an official recipient of the "Greesed Q-Tip Award". :clap:

[rosko_racer]

Kevin: Here is the video link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnpbOuWb4SE)for the first flight. Will post the other two videos later.

[foose4string]

The second flight was definitely the best. That one actually resembled something close to a controlled glide.

[rosko_racer]

Sorry for the delay. Here is the link for the second test flight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDSfMhr8Ddw). Much, much better flight than the first. Enjoy!

[rosko_racer]

Here is the link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFpXW1eDDEQ)to the third (and not so pretty) test flight...

[GuyNoir]

:y:

Uh, need a bit of work, Kev. . . .

[kjohnson]

Yeah that last flight was a little hairy. I was trying to dial out more of he up elevator an boost, so was a little late on correcting it. The 2nd flight was definitely the best one.

Thanks Raul for putting the videos up!

kj

[AstronMike]

Yes, thanks again for those videos, especially the second one! That was a great flight! Bet the wing loading on that thing is pretty high.

That first and third video reminds me of myself 20-30 years ago :eek::eek:

Since Kevin has obviously found a decent glide CG (nearly 50% aft of main wing LE) I wonder how feasible a 'dork scaled' cardstock/Depron free flight version of this would work with rear ejection? I have ideas about the elevons on the rear fins.

Need to know the overall dimensions of this craft if you have those.

[rosko_racer]

You are welcome Kevin!

Definetly that second flight was the best. Looking at it thru the camera is not the same as not thru it, one has to concentrate on the camera and the object being filmed. Nevertheless KJ is one brave and smart dude to see the gliding potential in a particular craft and making it happen.

[kooch]

Congrats on getting it to work.

Some ideas about the roll issues.

Nice Kevin.

Regarding roll issues with small span rc models, there are a lot of nice light weight gyros out there that could solve this I think. Once oriented (I'd leave on for boost and then glide transition), switch off and fly it.

Kevin K.

[AZ_Ron]

Kooch, I think a gyro is a brilliant idea. There are several out not that can be had pretty cheap. It would allow the pilot to focus more on flying
than on trying to make major roll corrections.
The big tip with using a gyro though is that you need a fast servo! ;)

R

[kjohnson]

Nice Kevin.

Regarding roll issues with small span rc models, there are a lot of nice light weight gyros out there that could solve this I think. Once oriented (I'd leave on for boost and then glide transition), switch off and fly it.

Kevin K.

I hadn't thought of adding a gyro. I know where I can get one and there is plenty of room for mounting it. I'll have to loom into it.

kj

[RangerStl]

The roll gyro is probably a pretty good idea. Depending upon the sensitivity in the pitch axis, another one connected to the elevator control might not be bad either.

As for flight testing, ever consider carrying the SS1 up on a larger aircraft and dropping it at altitude for glide testing?

[foose4string]

The roll gyro is probably a pretty good idea. Depending upon the sensitivity in the pitch axis, another one connected to the elevator control might not be bad either.

As for flight testing, ever consider carrying the SS1 up on a larger aircraft and dropping it at altitude for glide testing?

He's got a drop rig setup on his Radian Glider already. Weren't you already planning on glide testing your RC SS1 with that rig, Kevin? Not sure if that ever plan materialized.

[RangerStl]

He's got a drop rig setup on his Radian Glider already. Weren't you already planning on glide testing your RC SS1 with that rig, Kevin? Not sure if that ever plan materialized.

Sweet. That would be great to see photos of as well. :D

This would let you get the feel for the glide and maybe set up the controls to be balanced on the sticks (I'm struggling with a 65" Corsair model with high pitch sensitivity compared to roll).

Another brain fart... How about eject-able nose ballast? That way you could ballast it for boost and upon reaching altitude the ballast package would leave the aircraft and float down by parachute while the properly-balanced SS1 is piloted down in optimal trim for flight instead of boost.

Could be ejection charge-activated or servo-activated. Cylinder from a piece of BT with appropriate mass and a parachute attached? Shoot, now you got me thinking about my own project...

The gyro might make that unnecessary, though.

[kjohnson]

Here is the 4th flight from this weekend. I added a little noseweight back in, and changed the programming to a delta wing. Still need to put in some expo for the ailerons, but this flight was higher and straighter than the last ones. :)

u4iHJOVgEYs

kj

[kooch]

...So was the high speed fly by intentional? If so (and even if not), very cool!
You could hear it rip as it passed by.

I lost this thing on youtube right after liftoff. How tough is it to see during boost?

KK

[kjohnson]

It does get small quickly, but in person it's very easy to see the whole flight.

High speed pass? That's the glide speed! :) I did take a little time to orient it on the way down, so it had some time to build up speed before I leveled it off.

I may just do away with the scale decoration and go with a high contrast/ high visibility paint job for the next flights.

kj

[kjohnson]

He's got a drop rig setup on his Radian Glider already. Weren't you already planning on glide testing your RC SS1 with that rig, Kevin? Not sure if that ever plan materialized.

I was seriously considering it, but never got around to it before the launch date. At that point my couple of test throws were enough to get me in the ball park.

I'll post a couple pics of the drop rig, which was created by Herb Vinyard for carrying S8D and S8EP models. I've dropped those, free flight gliders, eggs, stuffed monkeys, and TARC rockets from the Radian.

Here are the photos of the drop rig- it's basically a balsa plate with a servo on one side and a plank sticking out the other side for an elastic connection. The blue foam is to hold the payload. The elastic is tied to the plank then looped over the payload and over the servo arm. I'm using the gear channel, so when I throw that switch the servo arm moves down and that releases the elastic.

[muto]

Kevin. I think that you need more speed to drop SS1 from ypur Radian.

[MaxQ]

It does get small quickly, but in person it's very easy to see the whole flight.

High speed pass? That's the glide speed! :) I did take a little time to orient it on the way down, so it had some time to build up speed before I leveled it off.

I may just do away with the scale decoration and go with a high contrast/ high visibility paint job for the next flights.

kj

Man, that thing dematerialized and rematerialized out of thin air at 0:41